Universal Salvation

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not annihilationist, but I think your reasoning is wrong, too. There are two extremes--- Calvinism and Universal Salvation. Both are at either end of the spectrum, and both are never plainly stated anywhere in scripture if either was true. Hence, a weird situation, if either were true.

God is not defeated by someone's choice. It's up to each of us to choose. It is all a joke if the actuality is that we can choose this day life or death, if in reality neither chose wrong in the end.

I could accept the idea of "freewill" determining a persons final end, if every person had equal opportunity and access to the gospel. However, only the naive embrace the idea the everyone has every opportunity in their physical lives to come to Jesus.

It is very difficult to honestly consider UR thru the lens of the ingrained doctrine of "endless torment", but if you look at scripture from the view of an all knowing God as Creator, seeing the end as the beginning. Then read scripture that supports UR it is by far the most reasonable.

Most endless torment scriptures are hyperbolic language concerning temporal lives. What do we "choose this day"? Joshua was speaking to Israel concerning the very immediate, were they going to continue to go in circles in the desert or would they embrace God as provider and "get over this Jordan". We have heard all our lives of "rightly dividing the word of truth", but what was meant by most was to define the Bible thru the lens of preconceived interpretation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I could accept the idea of "freewill" determining a persons final end, if every person had equal opportunity and access to the gospel. However, only the naive embrace the idea the everyone has every opportunity in their physical lives to come to Jesus.

Think about those who never knew Christ for a second. I believe God is righteous and will deal with them, but that does not mean God is unfair if choice were the truth of the matter. WHO KNOWS what God will do with those who never heard of Christ? I think we are too presumptuous to say that we do know.

It is very difficult to honestly consider UR thru the lens of the ingrained doctrine of "endless torment", but if you look at scripture from the view of an all knowing God as Creator, seeing the end as the beginning. Then read scripture that supports UR it is by far the most reasonable.

That is irrelvant, again, though. God is going to do what He is going to do. But right now we need to focus on growing in the Lord and reaching the Lost. UR will simply causes us to loosen our grip on the need to reach the Lost!

Most endless torment scriptures are hyperbolic language concerning temporal lives. What do we "choose this day"? Joshua was speaking to Israel concerning the very immediate, were they going to continue to go in circles in the desert or would they embrace God as provider and "get over this Jordan". We have heard all our lives of "rightly dividing the word of truth", but what was meant by most was to define the Bible thru the lens of preconceived interpretation.

I am all against reading through perceptual grids. But still.. what is PRACTICAL?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What has that got to do with my need to yield to the Spirit right now, in practical living, and my need to walk in the Spirit? I think the entire issue UR's are trying to make is how God is perceived. I think God is more concerned with our need to become more spiritual, and less carnal, since THAT is practical. UR is not practical.

Practical? Is it more practical to embrace and love a god that threatens "endless torment" if you don't obey. Or is it more practical to believe the God is a loving Heavenly Father that has allowed His creation to experience the horrible consequences of sin and evil, so that the creation can be redeemed with understanding from what it has been redeemed. Only then can man truly love and worship his Creator.

Have you seen the videos of those that "obey" Saddam, bowing and kissing his hands and hoping like crazy the he doesn't pull his pistol and shoot them on the spot. Reminds me of how some Christians "worship" God. Those pictures are the saddest examples of humanity I have ever seen, so degraded and disrespected, broken. As soon as they were out of Saddam's sight do you think they really loved or worshiped him? I assure you they have the hottest hatred imaginable for him, as displayed when he was hanged.

[Subdued]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is my point. A UR man I know claims that we must strive to serve God right now, and learn all we can in order to be led of the Spirit, but in an age ahead of our own, God will redeem everything and everyone ever lost, including devils. So we posed to him this note: If this is the case, and we still have to strive to serve God, then all this is useless information. I think it diverts people away from the more important issues. Philosophizing and theorizing and wondering about things that have nothing to do with our duty now is a great tool of the enemy, I think.

How did the man respond?

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

If UR is true, then taken to it's logical extreme, the preaching of salvation and the obedience to salvation is a complete waste of time. Why not just enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? (my entire life)

Yesterday during a discussion with CJ and Mfblume on another thread, I was invited to join in a discussion/debate on this issue, but declined the offer. However, after reading everything that has been posted here, your statement as noted above, represents the summation of my position regarding the matter. If it be true (Oh! BTW, it seems that I am always being compelled to use that small 3 lettered word in discussions of this nature), that the teachings of UR are scripturally correct, then the question must arise regarding the necessity for God's habitation of a human body, and the experience of its death, to secure the eternal salvation of those who would heed and obey His commandments. The misguided teachings of UR simply calls into question whether Christ Jesus died in vain!

It simply just does NOT seem logical to normal reasoning for God doing this, should it be, in the final analysis of all things, that every human being (as well as angelic) will enjoy eternal salvation! What, then, would it be that God was seeking to accomplish by compelling every entity that He has created to undergo the trials and tribulations of this life? In my humble, learned opinion, I am convinced (and this irrevocably so), that the heretical teachings which embrace universal salvation, is an assault upon the deity of our Lord, and His experience of death to secure my eternal salvation.

And THIS represents ALL that I choose to say about the matter, hence, no further post from me shall be forthcoming, regardless of the flames which I would expect from the likes of CJ and others who have unwittingly allowed themselves to be deceived into embracing this "doctrine of devils."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Practical? Is it more practical to embrace and love a god that threatens "endless torment" if you don't obey. Or is it more practical to believe the God is a loving Heavenly Father that has allowed His creation to experience the horrible consequences of sin and evil, so that the creation can be redeemed with understanding from what it has been redeemed. Only then can man truly love and worship his Creator.

I disagree. I cannot see how it is more practical to believe in UR when our madate is to reach the lost and dying. UR will lessen our efforts, whether consciously or subconsciously, as does Calvin's predestination and election. They are polar issues, but oddly will lessen one's drive to reach the lost.

I saw how the issue captivated the minds of people and how they should have occupied themselves more with practical needs to learn how to live spirituallky and resist sin and reach the lost.

Have you seen the videos of those that "obey" Saddam, bowing and kissing his hands and hoping like crazy the he doesn't pull his pistol and shoot them on the spot. Reminds me of how some Christians "worship" God. Those pictures are the saddest examples of humanity I have ever seen, so degraded and disrespected, broken. As soon as they were out of Saddam's sight do you think they really loved or worshiped him? I assure you they have the hottest hatred imaginable for him, as displayed when he was hanged.

I think that is moot to the issue. Again, I NEED TO STRIVE IN FAITH TO BECOME MORE GODLY AND SPIRITUAL. There is enough involved in THAT to not allow me to consider whether God wil redeem everything in a future age which the bible does not talk about.

God is practical. He does not say anything in plain language in His Book for us to study along those lines. I think we should match our focus with what the the bible says in plain language.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Subdued

How did the man respond?

He agreed. But the issue still kept rising.

[Subdued]

What a strange doctrine! Why bother serving the Lord if we'll be saved regardless? Why not just live in sin? Why strive to be like Him? Why should we witness to others? Why even TELL about Jesus at all? It makes no sense. It's certainly not logical.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Think about those who never knew Christ for a second. I believe God is righteous and will deal with them, but that does not mean God is unfair if choice were the truth of the matter. WHO KNOWS what God will do with those who never heard of Christ? I think we are too presumptuous to say that we do know.

Is this not a cop-out? We are soooo..... sure of so much of scripture why are we shy in this area? What you are ignoring is that there is much scripture to study on this subject.

That is irrelevant, again, though. God is going to do what He is going to do. But right now we need to focus on growing in the Lord and reaching the Lost. UR will simply causes us to loosen our grip on the need to reach the Lost!

This is a real misconception, UR creates a greater focus on reaching the lost because it brings more understanding that every person is precious and valuable, and that God really loves them and wants to save them from sin right now. Since their sins are already paid for why continue in self destruction??

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Is this not a cop-out? We are soooo..... sure of so much of scripture why are we shy in this area? What you are ignoring is that there is much scripture to study on this subject.

Because GOD DOES NOT ELABORATE ON IT. And neither you nor I can say He did.

This is a real misconception, UR creates a greater focus on reaching the lost because it brings more understanding that every person is precious and valuable, and that God really loves them and wants to save them from sin right now. Since their sins are already paid for why continue in self destruction??

I disagree. Bottom line, and unless someone can prove me wrong, I cannot help but say UR is irrelevant to my focus on the very basis that the BIBLE DOES NOT PLAINLY TEACH IT. And there is good reason for that.