Timmy....I got this reply from my husband (I sent him an email query, as I was curious exactly how he would respond, and this is the response I received, I had to edit one mildly derogatory word to comply to forum guidelines...I am going to replace it with the word "Unicorn" because it amuses me )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich's Husband
This is just an UNICORN expressing his highly biased opinion. I think you would probably agree that many people outside of faith are Good people, and reflect sound ethical and Moral judgement. Personally I value the rights, freedoms and happiness of others much more greatly than the edicts of a supreme being. The concept of a "lawgiver" is not a necessary part of the equation.
Universally, moral and ethical standards are ingrained in people despite of logic and reason. Ethics and philosophy teachers will ask first year students if it is wrong to have sex with their sister if they are having sex for non procreative purposes, would not and could not conceive, and removed God from the equation. This is such a standard that everyone, atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Daoist, etc... all agree should not be done, even when all factors are removed. Maybe there is no conscious "Rationale" reflected in this sentiment but this speaks to the power of the human mind to observe rules based on their practical value in a social system.
Ultimately, even in a church, the rules of morality do not come from a lawgiver, but from the pressure of the society that the churchgoer subjects themselves to. There is great danger in this perspective in my opinion, because the prospect of utilizing empathy for a basis of a system of personal or universal "justice" is taken out of the equation. The basis of morality existing in the realm of dogma is a most threatening prospect indeed. I think even Devout Christians could understand that, and indeed this is the reason that the protestant branches of Christianity sprouted from the Catholic Church.
It is far better, I think, that one is not murdering, raping and selling slaves because he honestly finds it distasteful than to believe the only thing stopping him is that God told him not to. Especially when the christian God never told us not to sell slaves in the bible, and requires a man purchase a dowry for a raped woman, and then marry her. Deuteronomy 22:28–29
A lot of the things you have said imply that, but you won't come right out and say it.
(I am an unbeliever, by the way.) My thoughts: there are some believers who are better than some unbelievers. There are some unbelievers who are better than some believers. There is a spectrum of "goodness" in both camps. I haven't developed a strong opinion on which camp has more goodness in it, but I am more interested in the opinions of believers on this question, anyway. (In this thread, at least. )
As for me, before I was a Christian, I was just a kid, so not much wallowing in the cesspool of sin. To compare the pre-backslidden me with the backslidden me, I'd have to say there isn't much difference, goodness-wise. (Big difference, depression-wise, but that's a different topic.)
I think you're totally looking at this from the wrong point of view. You want to gauge the amount of "goodness" residing in the Christian vs. Non-believer? How would you quantify that? What criteria would you choose to measure that, and how would you account for the many variables that would have to be included in order to get an accurate idea of faith's impact on someone's stock of "goodness?"
Also, what is the benefit of proving either opinion? What benefit comes from proposing that Christians think they are better than others? What benefit comes from proving that Christians are no better than the non-believer?
futhermore, I'm not implying that I believe anyone is better than anyone else, nor do I think that way. I've stated clearly what I believe. I have a feeling you feel that Christians do think of themselves as better, and you are looking for confirmation of that idea. Hopefully I am wrong about that.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of christians who do think that they are better than other people.
It was one reason why I quit going to OP churches. I could never quite measure up to the
"standards". When I did what I thought was complete standards, then there was always something else that I wasn't doing enough of or too much of. BAH!
Now I truly only worry about pleasing Jesus, who had some really profound things to say about outside white sepulchers and filth from the heart.
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It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
I think you're totally looking at this from the wrong point of view. You want to gauge the amount of "goodness" residing in the Christian vs. Non-believer? How would you quantify that? What criteria would you choose to measure that, and how would you account for the many variables that would have to be included in order to get an accurate idea of faith's impact on someone's stock of "goodness?"
Also, what is the benefit of proving either opinion? What benefit comes from proposing that Christians think they are better than others? What benefit comes from proving that Christians are no better than the non-believer?
futhermore, I'm not implying that I believe anyone is better than anyone else, nor do I think that way. I've stated clearly what I believe. I have a feeling you feel that Christians do think of themselves as better, and you are looking for confirmation of that idea. Hopefully I am wrong about that.
It seems that some do and some don't feel that way. Which is fine. Everyone's different.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think I told this before but its worth a repeat. I saw a guy in a store who used to attend our church while we were in legalism. He drifted away because he got a job out of town boxing frozen pizzas. Six years later he's telling me how he got right with God, started going to another (legalistic) church. He told me he left his family on Father's Day because his wife wouldn't go to church or be intimate with him. He told me how much he loved God and how he is planning to go to Bible college to be a minister. He told me his son became an athiest and wouldn't have anything to do with him. I told the guy I didn't blame the kid. Another embarassment to christianity.
My rule of thumb. If you have to tell people you are a christian, you may not be as Christ like as you think you are. The disciples were indentified as christians because they acted like Christ. They performed signs, wonders, miracles. They took care of the poor and needy in their group. They loved people. The disciples were so good at it they were called christians. It started as a derogatory term, wound up being an endearing word.
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A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
Unfortunately, there are a lot of christians who do think that they are better than other people.
It was one reason why I quit going to OP churches. I could never quite measure up to the
"standards". When I did what I thought was complete standards, then there was always something else that I wasn't doing enough of or too much of. BAH!
Now I truly only worry about pleasing Jesus, who had some really profound things to say about outside white sepulchers and filth from the heart.
I don't seem to have that problem at the OP church I attend
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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