Biggest UPC church in the US???

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by oletime

yep get thata big brush out and start paintin !

I don't know that it's such a "big brush" when looking at the OP movement in the South several decades back. I take no umbrage at what Timlan said. I just didn't like one of the earlier comments.

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Racism is an ugly legacy - a human legacy that reached across every ethnicity and tainted every kindred, tribe, tongue and people.

The true measure of success is in how one rises above this "heritage." By stooping to the same level as the past shame with race baiting and slamming "white people" as someone else had done in an earlier post, thee past isn't allowed to be "the past."

A highly respected Elder in the aforemention assembly was out going door to door evangilizing when we came to this white persons house. He said lest skip this house we will leave him to the white brothers.We both spoke english.Only problem was all the white upc churches left the area.Let me say this he was not a Elder at the time.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Actually, the thread-starter has somewhat of a point to bring up race in terms of church size--at least in the UPC south and maybe elsewhere.

I've been there, heard that, done that and got the t-shirt as far as hearing from some preachers, pastors and other folks that a "big church" doesn't count if it ain't white folks that, in their perception, have some sense or count for something.

I probably wouldn't be too credible if I started being anecdotal, but Kenneth Phillips made the point behind a Texas Campmeeting pulpit.

This was back in the early seventies and while he was preaching, he was referring to C. W. Shew's bus ministry in Ft. Worth that was bringing people in by the hundreds.

Phillips said he heard the talk over plates of food in restaurants after campmeetings and conferences and he quoted the general feeling of a lot of the Texas District and elsewhere: "Sure, Shew's got a big Sunday School, but they're all niggers."

The qualifier said it all.

I can see some folks, especially in this modern day Western District and elsewhere in the UPC, saying much the same about this guy's church.

"Yeah, he's got a big Sunday School, but they're all illegals," or something to that effect.

So discussing UPC folks' attitude toward race with regard to big Sunday schools or churches is not without precedent, and not without relevance.

It's one thing to discuss race relations. It's another to make a generalized statement about white board members who as far as I know never made a statement that a latino church does not count imo it's meant to be inflammatory and race baiting they way it came across

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Actually, the thread-starter has somewhat of a point to bring up race in terms of church size--at least in the UPC south and maybe elsewhere.

I've been there, heard that, done that and got the t-shirt as far as hearing from some preachers, pastors and other folks that a "big church" doesn't count if it ain't white folks that, in their perception, have some sense or count for something.

I probably wouldn't be too credible if I started being anecdotal, but Kenneth Phillips made the point behind a Texas Campmeeting pulpit.

This was back in the early seventies and while he was preaching, he was referring to C. W. Shew's bus ministry in Ft. Worth that was bringing people in by the hundreds.

Phillips said he heard the talk over plates of food in restaurants after campmeetings and conferences and he quoted the general feeling of a lot of the Texas District and elsewhere: "Sure, Shew's got a big Sunday School, but they're all niggers."

The qualifier said it all.

I can see some folks, especially in this modern day Western District and elsewhere in the UPC, saying much the same about this guy's church.

"Yeah, he's got a big Sunday School, but they're all illegals," or something to that effect.

So discussing UPC folks' attitude toward race with regard to big Sunday schools or churches is not without precedent, and not without relevance.

It happens today too. Tim Downs came to our church and the local church folks freaked out it was 50-60% black new visitors... this was 2 years ago.

Another guy who had Tim had a high black turnout because he believes that the poor are more open to the gospel (he is 100% correct) and they went to the HUD complexes which were mostly poor black/latino in that community.

In fact Tim wrote a good article about it called "Those kind of people" that is really moving. Sadly passive racism is still strong in many churches because that defines many Apostolics social circle more so than work or actual outside activities.

I posted it here on AFF some time ago, ill dig it out.

[Apocrypha]

"Those Kind of People"

I want to pre-warn you that I am writing this news letter with a heavy burden and a strong passion. I am not going to tickle any ears or make anyone feel good; I am going to speak the truth in love. If you are one who is easily offended please do not read any further.

Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Over the last 24 hours God has been really dealing with me to write an article on "Those Kind Of People". It all stems from the comments over the last 3 years that I have heard from others concerning the poor people of our world. I cannot begin to tell how many times people have asked me or made statements like why reach for those people, they will just be in need all of the time.

Yes, believe it or not this is no small issue among us. This is not just a few people this is a large amount of people who I have personally talked to. We must be honest, in your church do you go out of your way to avoid shaking hands with the poor? Does your church go into poverty stricken projects and apartments and serve them and bring them to your church? Does your church fellowship with the poor and invite them to all of the church special functions?

One man made the statement that we are ruining the church because we are making it a welfare church bringing in the poor. Others have made statements on how they look, dress, smell and act as if they were animals instead of souls. What have we become when we look down upon the lost and the poor?

Over and over in the Bible we learn of what God thinks of "Those Kind Of People"

Luke 4:16-21
And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read... "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD... Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

We must reach them, we must become light to them we must love them!

In my revivals across America we have reached thousands of souls, when I look back very few of the hungry people we reached had large amounts of money saved, very few had everything going just right in their lives, and none were Apostolic when we met them. Could this be why we swap Saints so often? Yes, it's much easier to deal with Apostolics that just move from church to church but are we really doing God's will?

James 2:5
Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

How many souls are in our cities waiting on the Gospel and the saving grace of God and they will not be reached due to their financial positions? Why do we continue to build our churches in the up scale neighborhoods leaving the poor and the lost? Why do we give preferential seating and fellowship to those with degrees while neglecting the poor as they beg for our love and attention?

I have often heard people brag about inviting the Lawyer or Doctor to church like it was a huge accomplishment even though the Doctor or Lawyer never came one time while 3 poor people wept in the altar and were baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost without ever a mention.

Who are these poor? Each and every one of them are the property of Jesus Christ he died for them, he gave his life for them and it's not his will that any of them should perish! They all have a soul, they all are human beings!

We must somehow reach every color, every race, every soul! I have bad news, there is no such thing as an all White Church, there is no such thing as an all Black Church, there is no such thing as an all Spanish Church, there is only THE CHURCH and in THE CHURCH there will be every race every color every level of education, levels of income and lifestyle backgrounds.

Let us repent and go after the hungry souls of our cities, God help us not to be a respecter of persons! I have listed below some scriptural teachings on reaching the poor. I am begging you to take a few moments to read them.

Ezek. 16:49
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

Is. 10:1-3
"Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"

Luke 1:52
"He has brought down rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were hungry. He has filled the hungry with good things; and sent away the rich empty-handed."
Ezek. 22:29,31
"The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice... Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 5:28
"[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

James 5:1-6
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.
Luke 6:24
"But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."


God Bless,

Evangelist Tim Downs

[Apocrypha]

That is a great article by Tim.

[Cindy]

I don't really know or care which is the biggest church in the US. But did anyone ever figure it out?

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Actually, the thread-starter has somewhat of a point to bring up race in terms of church size--at least in the UPC south and maybe elsewhere.

I've been there, heard that, done that and got the t-shirt as far as hearing from some preachers, pastors and other folks that a "big church" doesn't count if it ain't white folks that, in their perception, have some sense or count for something.

I probably wouldn't be too credible if I started being anecdotal, but Kenneth Phillips made the point behind a Texas Campmeeting pulpit.

This was back in the early seventies and while he was preaching, he was referring to C. W. Shew's bus ministry in Ft. Worth that was bringing people in by the hundreds.

Phillips said he heard the talk over plates of food in restaurants after campmeetings and conferences and he quoted the general feeling of a lot of the Texas District and elsewhere: "Sure, Shew's got a big Sunday School, but they're all niggers."

The qualifier said it all.

I can see some folks, especially in this modern day Western District and elsewhere in the UPC, saying much the same about this guy's church.

"Yeah, he's got a big Sunday School, but they're all illegals," or something to that effect.

So discussing UPC folks' attitude toward race with regard to big Sunday schools or churches is not without precedent, and not without relevance.

Not very familiar with the Western District are you.
I would say that a majority of the members are minorities...primarily Hispanic....and no one that i know out there has a problem with it.
My wife and I are both from WD ...I am (mostly) Anglo...she is Hispanic....I was preaching in a church I grew up in a couple of weeks ago...the LARGE majority were Hispanic...preached for a family member out there...the majority was Hispanic....the WD has absolutely no problem with minorities....and except for a very few throwbacks, this holds true for the UPC in general.

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Actually, the thread-starter has somewhat of a point to bring up race in terms of church size--at least in the UPC south and maybe elsewhere.

I've been there, heard that, done that and got the t-shirt as far as hearing from some preachers, pastors and other folks that a "big church" doesn't count if it ain't white folks that, in their perception, have some sense or count for something.

I probably wouldn't be too credible if I started being anecdotal, but Kenneth Phillips made the point behind a Texas Campmeeting pulpit.

This was back in the early seventies and while he was preaching, he was referring to C. W. Shew's bus ministry in Ft. Worth that was bringing people in by the hundreds.

Phillips said he heard the talk over plates of food in restaurants after campmeetings and conferences and he quoted the general feeling of a lot of the Texas District and elsewhere: "Sure, Shew's got a big Sunday School, but they're all niggers."

The qualifier said it all.

I can see some folks, especially in this modern day Western District and elsewhere in the UPC, saying much the same about this guy's church.

"Yeah, he's got a big Sunday School, but they're all illegals," or something to that effect.

So discussing UPC folks' attitude toward race with regard to big Sunday schools or churches is not without precedent, and not without relevance.

For goodness sake!!!!
That was the early '70's....has no bearing on things today...almost everybody said idiotic things like that back then....times, people, churches, organizations change.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by deadeye

For goodness sake!!!!
That was the early '70's....has no bearing on things today...almost everybody said idiotic things like that back then....times, people, churches, organizations change.

It is said differently today. But I have seen it in four seperate UPCI churches. It is usually expressed as a feeling that church doesnt feel like a "family" anymore.