Let's Get Back to the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ananias

Bro Blume,

You may have answered this question already because I haven't read all the threads on this one. But let me say you have some good stuff on this topic. That being said, it sounds like you're saying here that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues isn't where we are resurected with Christ. That, to me, sounds like you're saying the Baptism of the Holy Ghost isn't necessary for salvation. Please clarify this for me, if you could. Do you believe the infilling of the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues is part of God's plan for salvation?

Blessings

Yes, the baptism of the Holy Ghost is part of salvation. But I do not believe that requires us to think that death is repentance, burial is baptism and resurrection is Holy Ghost baptism. That is nowhere stated in the bible. It is a neat sounding idea, but it is unbiblical. Baptism is said to be death, burial and resurrection as follows:

DEATH: Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

BURIAL: Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


RESURRECTION: Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Where did we get the idea that repentance, baptism and Spirit infilling were death, burial and resurrection? Not the bible. BUt that doe snot mean Spirit infilling is not part of salvation.

[Ananias]

Thanks for the clarification. I've always viewed baptism as death and burial and Holy Ghost as resurection. Your view is interesting. I'd be interested in understanding what role the infilling of the Holy Ghost plays if it's not a fulfillment of the resurection in type.

Once again, GREAT STUFF on the work of the cross. It's excellent to see an Apostolic going deeper with that. It does make me realize I've really missed it, myself (to be honest!)

Blessings to you!

[mfblume]

Thanks, A.

I think the Holy Ghost baptism is explained detailingly as part of the means by which we are born again, obviously, as well as the means to overcome through empowerment by that Spirit. The Spirit teaches us. We are one spirit with God's Spirit as a man is one flesh with His wife.

[mfblume]

Joseph of Arimathaea requested the Lord's body after Jesus died. Pilate granted his request and Joseph put Jesus' body in his own personal tomb.

This shows us a great message concerning identity with Christ.

When we understand Jesus died our deaths in vicarious sacrifice, it is like putting Him in our graves. Since we were supposed to be put in our graves, and Jesus died our death penalties, then it is as though Jesus is put in our graves. This is what we understand about His death.

To understand it and think of it in this way is to identify ourselves with Jesus. This is actually the way God sees it. And even if we do not understand it as so, it doesn't change the fact that this is so. Once we align our minds and understandings up with this sort of viewpoint, we realize that Christ's benefits obtained through His death and resurrection, like being dead to sin so that sin shall not have victory over us, are our benefits since we died with Him.

[mfblume]

Jesus was crucified on Golgotha, A PLACE OF A SKULL. This is very significant to identity with Christ as well.

We died with Christ and possess all the benefits He achieved through His personal death due to our unions to His death. But unless we understand this, we will not enjoy those benefits, for we will never stand upon God's word for them in order to enjoy them. So, in a sense, we have to DIE IN OUR UNDERSTANDING "WITH CHRIST". We are already dead with Him to sin and death, but starting to learn this can be considered dying in the place of the skull -- Dying in the place of OUR THINKING and UNDERSTANDING.

As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. And we will not live and act the way we should if we do not THINK we died with Christ, although we actually did.

How vital it is to die in the place of the skull!

[mfblume]

Proverbs mentions this verse that is a very powerful thought that answers a lot of why so many Christians live defeated lives and do not overcome when the cross actually paid for total overcoming power for us all.

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

The verse states that a man might SAY certain things, like eat and drink, but the words are not always the true thoughts of the person.

The bible has all sorts of statements about our victory in Jesus, that many people SAY and speak about. They hear it preached often. But unless the heart of that person is made to fully believe in those statements, our lives will not reflect what those statements are saying.

In other words, no matter what the bible says about us, as a man thinketh in his heart so is he. We will live lives that are so far below the status the cross enabled us to live, because our understanding was never aligned to those truths. This occurs due to several reasons. Perhaps these truths were never preached enough, and other issues always received the focus in churches. Or, the preaching that did occur, was only heard and not acted upon by belief in them. Perhaps someone is being bombarded so much about how no good they are, despite the preaching that occurs.

But whatever the case, if the bible says we are more than conquerors, and we do not live lives that reflect that truth, then it is because OUR THINKING has not been corrected and aligned to the truth of our status in the Word of God.

It is vitally important to learn the truth and see the truth set our minds free.

We are not automatically overcomers simply because Jesus paid for that status on the cross. Oh, there is no work to do to change that, as though we must add the efforts of our own to the efforts op the cross. The cross is a finished work in that no finger need be lifted by anyone, including God, as far as making us overcomes is concerned. It is just that we need to ACCEPT THAT WORK AS FINISHED. OUR MINDS MUST UNDERSTAND THIS. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, despite anything the bible says we are. In other words, we will be losers and defeatists if our minds think we are, and if our minds do not accept what the bible says we are. In actuality we are not losers, but we will live like it.

People can pray and fast all they way for victory, but unless their minds are renewed to what the word says and teaches, we will not live victoriously.

Some people treat prayer and fasting as an ordeal they must exert in order to add to the unfinished work of the cross and bring themselves to victory. How mistaken they are!

Despite all the victory the bible says we have, if we do not understand that but think a defeated thought, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Eli was a heavy fat-fleshy man, dim of sight, with two sons whose names meant Fist Fighter and Mouth of the Serpent (Phinehas and Hophni). He let the light of the candlestick burn out int he Tabernacle, and it was a day when the word of God was so rare it was precious, and there was no open vision.

This state represents the state of a carnal believer whose eyes of "understanding" are dim, and they do not let their light "so shine". Their offspring by way of what their lives portray are works of the flesh represented by Eli's boys, the fist fighter and mouth of the serpent. They say things to people that hurt and are devilish, and there is much fuss and fight in their lives.

All this occurs due to carnality and lack of spiritual understanding.

In 1 Sam 4, a man of Benjamin's tribe ran reporting the news that the ark of God was taken and Eli's two sons had died.

Like this man of Benjamin, Paul was a Benjamite. And his message in the Bible was an emphasis upon the work of the cross applied to the believer's life. It is a message about how Christ's cross dealt with OUR lives and carnality. And this message will recover believers from carnality.

When the Benjamite told the message to Eli, he fell back and broke his neck and died. We read he was AN OLD MAN and very heavy, or fleshly. This represents the OLD MAN whom Paul spoke about, and this old man is slain by the truths of the cross.

Paul's message needs to break through to the church and cause the OLD MAN TO DIE.

I speed read the first post and didn't touch the next three or four,to much reading.99% of the church is carnal.The way I see all the scripture about carnal man is,If your carnal your not saved or don't have life.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen, bro! Paul came preaching nothing but Christ and HIM CRUCIFIED!

That is a good thought.Nothing but Jesus and him crucified.What is Jesus ? All of the word.What was the writter saying ? He didn't preach stories like most preachers do,all he preached is the word and Jesus crucified.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Joelel

That is a good thought.Nothing but Jesus and him crucified.What is Jesus ? All of the word.What was the writter saying ? He didn't preach stories like most preachers do,all he preached is the word and Jesus crucified.

Amen.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Joelel

I speed read the first post and didn't touch the next three or four,to much reading.99% of the church is carnal.The way I see all the scripture about carnal man is,If your carnal your not saved or don't have life.

The carnal mind is enmity against the law of God and is not subject to God. There are more problems with carnality than the devil, since a lot of what is blamed on the devil is actually due to severe carnality!