I would think there are some things that are "dropped" when one "leaves" standards. I really don't like either of those terms, but those are terms well known in our ranks, so we'll use them.
Could it be that once their eyes are opened to seeing man made standards aren't Biblical that their eyes are open to see other scriptures with an open mind more and not what was "told" to them all their lives?
Just throwing this out there for discussion.
Ferd asked if there could be a connection, I responded that I think there could be to a point, in some cases-not all.
Standards are based on Principles-principles especially God's never change.
Now the interpretation of those standards are really the crux of the matter.
And seeing scripture in a new light can also in some instances be known as being deceived.
When the standard goes, the doctrine always changes. what concerns me the most is, most who have left progress to the point where the baptism of the holy ghost is almost non exisitent and I'm NOT going to take that back. I know many who are more "evangelical" in their belief system then even "spirit filled charismatic".
Even more frieghtening are the types that have even "evolved" into what we now see in people like Reba Rambo and carlton Pearson. Many are starting to go in that direction - some with whom I wont even say the names here on the forum
and frankly, this is what worries me about change.
I would think there are some things that are "dropped" when one "leaves" standards. I really don't like either of those terms, but those are terms well known in our ranks, so we'll use them.
Could it be that once their eyes are opened to seeing man made standards aren't Biblical that their eyes are open to see other scriptures with an open mind more and not what was "told" to them all their lives?
Just throwing this out there for discussion.
well Renda as a guy that challenges everything and refuses to view certain traditions of the apostolic church as biblical mandates but cannot find a scriptural foundation for leaving the foundational doctrines of Baptism in Jesus name and infilling of the Holy Ghost, I simply cant accept your premise.
Eyes opened? I’m not buying that. Decided to change the doctrine is what happened. But WHY is the real question.
I don’t have an answer for why. And I am not trying to make an accusation either.
Pardon this comparison but many of us see it that Truth got treated like so many split ends that ended up on the floor of the beauticians shop.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
well Renda as a guy that challenges everything and refuses to view certain traditions of the apostolic church as biblical mandates but cannot find a scriptural foundation for leaving the foundational doctrines of Baptism in Jesus name and infilling of the Holy Ghost, I simply cant accept your premise.
Eyes opened? I’m not buying that. Decided to change the doctrine is what happened. But WHY is the real question.
I don’t have an answer for why. And I am not trying to make an accusation either.
Pardon this comparison but many of us see it that Truth got treated like so many split ends that ended up on the floor of the beauticians shop.
You missed your calling Ferd, you should write for a living with lines like that.
I have absolutly no interest in rehashing agian the Water Spirit doctrine.
I am interested in the connection between leaving standards and changing ones core doctrine.
these things seem to go together. For some I suppose doctrine goes first, but i have seen quite a few where standards were jettisoned and that led to rethinking doctrine.
I was the youth pastor to some kids whos parents did this. the man had a upci licenes for years. they decided the standards were dumb. then they decided to leave an apostolic church. now they go to a baptist church and this guy just recently refused to baptize someone in the name of Jesus.
thats a pretty over the top example but it reflects a view that many of us have.
people leave mainsteam Apostolic churchs because they dont like dresses and end up leaving the doctrine they held all their lives....
this is what Im interested in. Not if W/S is right or wrong. Im not interested in debating it.
Ferd I get your question and I think part of it is that when you are never allowed to think for yourself, you are told what everything means, and then one day a light comes on. You begin to reexamine everything.
I was assisting a pastor who left the UPC and went pretty much down the road you described, but the issues that came up after he left the UPC had been brewing under the surface for a long time. When I saw what was happening I jumped ship faster than you can imagine. I don't think this is the past most take. In fact, that pastor, was the only one I know of that went off the deep end out of the entire congregation.
I have absolutly no interest in rehashing agian the Water Spirit doctrine.
I am interested in the connection between leaving standards and changing ones core doctrine.
these things seem to go together. For some I suppose doctrine goes first, but i have seen quite a few where standards were jettisoned and that led to rethinking doctrine.
I was the youth pastor to some kids whos parents did this. the man had a upci licenes for years. they decided the standards were dumb. then they decided to leave an apostolic church. now they go to a baptist church and this guy just recently refused to baptize someone in the name of Jesus.
thats a pretty over the top example but it reflects a view that many of us have.
people leave mainsteam Apostolic churchs because they dont like dresses and end up leaving the doctrine they held all their lives....
this is what Im interested in. Not if W/S is right or wrong. Im not interested in debating it.
So many of the brethren enter into this community following the instructions of men. They have literally been discipled by men.
The operation of the human politic is highly familar to them.
The operation of spirit-leading and teaching is largely unfamilar to them.
The most blatant insertions of man-rule over members of God's Christ is normally first observable in the use of external standards involving dress and lifestyle prohibitions.
The propensity for the double-minded to feel disinfranchised is very real and very understandable. The immature saint will often look at the whole thing as a human control game. Once that view becomes prevelent, all experiences related to the community are suspect. The general community is repeatedly told that expression of diverse thought is the seed of disobedience to the ruler; sowing discord in the local assembly. It is a powerful, self-substaining, sytem of interaction. Even disgruntled exodus is valuable to those having rule, it serves to increase the homogenous view that undergirds the group-think platform.
Sound doctrine becomes a victim of colaterial damage. The strife that welled up in the disinfranchised leads them to presume that the whole thing is a man-made game.
Maybe when its all said and done and folks have had their fill of playing King-of-the-hill, they [the disenfranchised] will return to seeking a city whose builder and maker is God. Being born again into a new Kingdom by being buried and raised up to newness of life.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
When the standard goes, the doctrine always changes. what concerns me the most is, most who have left progress to the point where the baptism of the holy ghost is almost non exisitent and I'm NOT going to take that back. I know many who are more "evangelical" in their belief system then even "spirit filled charismatic".
Even more frieghtening are the types that have even "evolved" into what we now see in people like Reba Rambo and carlton Pearson. Many are starting to go in that direction - some with whom I wont even say the names here on the forum
and frankly, this is what worries me about change.
Mark a couple of years ago, i sat at a table with a family I used to go to church with. they were very much doctrinally sound. the parents decided they didnt like standards and left. they went to a former UPCI guys BIG church that you would know here in Dallas.
As we sat talking, it was clear THEY at lest still believe in the Oneness doctrine, at least that it is "more right" than the trinitarian view. their 18 year old daughter was simply lost in the discussion. she didnt understand there was any difference.
Her view was that "being a Christian" was all that was important. She was dating a guy that "belived in Jesus" and honestly didnt care one bit that he didnt go to church at all.
there is absolutly a progression away from doctrine that is connected to dropping standards.
I think some are fine with that. I for one am not.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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