How long have you been out of the UPC Dan? Our church pastors do govern their own. They have the right to teach on things as they see fit.
(They have for as long as I've been around UPC.. and I've been around since I was four)
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Originally Posted by CC1
Have you read the Articles of Faith or the manual lately?
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Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW
Not in about five years, but I know they haven't changed much since then.
That said... almost all of our churches are autonomous as stated before... and it's left up to each individual pastor how often they teach on things.
There are no police who go around to the churches under cover to see if they are teaching on outward things every 5th Sunday.
No police, huh? The affirmation statement, local ministers and district boards have done plenty of policing, Lady LPW.
There are ministers even on this forum who can testify to this.
And most of the policing is done by saints ... smile.
I've been in the org as a churchgoer and under my dad's ministry from 1974-2006 ... the year I turned in my license.
Churches are autonomous to a degree. However, compliance to church dogma varies from section to district. Rules change when the church is affiliiated w/ the org, also.
Lastly as long as the Articles of Faith dictate a dress code and other extrabiblical norms for the fellowship .... ministers will be held accountable for them in one way or another .... usually be degrees of fellowship.
most churches outside our ranks count membership differently than we do. if you count all the real attenders, casual attenders, christmas/easter christians, backsliders who come in and still consider it their church... yes, the number would be much higher. we tend to use people in the seats and kids in the classes as the number, but once again, most fellowships use extended numbers, just like the UPC itself uses Easter attendance #s to express their membership (which is garbage anyhow, they should subtract 40% off their number just for doing that)
Last edited by Admin; 02-26-2008 at 01:26 PM.
Reason: Keep discussion on topic
Why are you mocking them? What's wrong with setting ambitious goals for the Kingdom, and working toward them ?
Stagnating?
Keep in mind many groups and churches have broken off from the UPCI over the years, but still remain Apostolic. So as long as they remain in the Kingdom of God, and He is glorified, the statistics of an individual denomination are not that important.
What gets me is the not only is he mocking them, but he's a licensed minister with them.
What gets me is the not only is he mocking them, but he's a licensed minister with them.
Exactly. I think he feels strongly both ways.
__________________ "Many people view their relationship with God like a "color by number" picture. It's easier to let someone else define the boundaries, tell them which blanks to fill in, and what color to use than it is for them to take a blank canvas and seek inspiration from the Source in order to paint their own masterpiece"
most churches outside our ranks count membership differently than we do. if you count all the real attenders, casual attenders, christmas/easter christians, backsliders who come in and still consider it their church... yes, the number would be much higher. we tend to use people in the seats and kids in the classes as the number, but once again, most fellowships use extended numbers, just like the UPC itself uses Easter attendance #s to express their membership (which is garbage anyhow, they should subtract 40% off their number just for doing that)
I agree.
__________________
"Most human beings are not able to stand the message of the shaking of foundations. They reject and attack the prophetic minds, not because they really disagree with them, but because they sense the truth of their words and cannot receive it." Paul Tillich
I was just thinking recently that the UPC used to be a hugely growing church back in the day and I was wondering what has happened. I know that in our area, even the church that used to be big is now medium at best (used to run 500-600. Now they're lucky if they have 200)
The more I thought about it, the more I realized that back in day, people were looking for something more in their religious experience than what they could get in their mainline denominational churches. We were asking questions about things like tongues, the Holy Ghost, etc. Many of us didn't know enough to ask questions about things like Oneness/Trinity, or standards. But when we asked about the Holy Ghost, these other subjects just came packaged in the deal, so we accepted them lock-stock-and-barrel.
So now fast forward to today. Lo and behold there's a mega-church in almost every bigger city. And the UPC and others are declining. Why? Partly because they offer the exciting, vibrant worship services that the UPC has always offered, but without any of the baggage. No standards to worry about. No doctrinal issues to haggle over. Most are very accommodating. As long as you come and worship, it's ok.
In my mind, where I ended with this is that the UPC (and others) basically are going downhill because, while they may offer what the people want and need, they also require things that are not needed. Before people accepted those things because there wasn't any other choice. Today there are so many others choices.
Is this the first year there has been a decline in the numbers or is this a trend?
__________________
"Most human beings are not able to stand the message of the shaking of foundations. They reject and attack the prophetic minds, not because they really disagree with them, but because they sense the truth of their words and cannot receive it." Paul Tillich
No police, huh? The affirmation statement, local ministers and district boards have done plenty of policing, Lady LPW.
There are ministers even on this forum who can testify to this.
And most of the policing is done by saints ... smile.
I've been in the org as a churchgoer and under my dad's ministry from 1974-2006 ... the year I turned in my license.
Churches are autonomous to a degree. However, compliance to church dogma varies from section to district. Rules change when the church is affiliiated w/ the org, also.
Lastly as long as the Articles of Faith dictate a dress code and other extrabiblical norms for the fellowship .... ministers will be held accountable for them in one way or another .... usually be degrees of fellowship.
And that is entirely up the the individual churches and pastors, as I said before. No one holds a gun to anyone's head.. and everyone is free to leave just as you have.
__________________ Mrs. LPW
Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
And that is entirely up the the individual churches and pastors, as I said before. No one holds a gun to anyone's head.. and everyone is free to leave just as you have.
freedom is not a very good word IMO. There are many issues to deal with if the pastor chooses to live outside the UPCI norm. Thats both ways.....liberal or UC
"Ya'll behave now, ya hear!"
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