You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by shag

If the judgement did not end with them in that generation (their lifetime), then according to Matt. 21 :40, every time the jewish race(per your view) has received a judgment on them in the last 2000 years because of their "race", then it was also a coming of the Lord, per vs.40. Thats not the case.

As far as the cambellites, I assume youre speaking of the bunch that followed Allexander Cambpell, and now makes up the church of Christ. I understand where youre coming from. If we say that you come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of the Lord, 1 cor.1:7, the gifts could stop after his coming if it was in ad70. I dont see the gifts stopping, but rather making sure the gifts are being used especially while waiting for the coming. They miss the Spirit promise being for ALL that are afar off that the Lord calls as well. They also must think Ananias was an apostle(j/k) since he laid his hands on Paul that he would receive his sight....
I think i see your angle, if you admit there was a coming, then you have to give up the Holyghost as being only for that generation. I dont see it that way. Please address vs. 40 and the coming, as to how it was not a coming to the pharisees in ad 70, tho.

No it will conclude at the coming of the Lord.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

No it will conclude at the coming of the Lord.

Sorry, but you lost me. Were you addressing my last sentence?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by shag

Sorry, but you lost me. Were you addressing my last sentence?

I was saying the judgment begin on thme at 70AD and will continue until the Lord comes. Mt.23:38-39
Zech. 12:7-14, 13:1-9, 14:1-21
Isa. 2:1-5, 4:2-6, 52:5-17,60, 62, 65:17-25, 66:15-24
Ezk. 35-36-37-38-39
Dan. 2:35,44, 7:21-27
Hosea 2:14-23, 3
Joel 3:9-21
Amos 9:11-15
MIcah 4:1-5, 7:14-20
Rev. 19:11-21

[shag]

But according to the parable, the judgment and the coming are one and the same event, how can you separate them?


40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It is clear that the Kingdom was taken from them. From your viewpoint when the Lord comes in our future, according to this parable, the Kingdom will be given to someone else. Who is it going to be given to in our future per this parable? We all know it was given to the gentiles and that is what Jesus is speaking of in vs. 41 & 43, right? Also, Jesus says in verse 40-41 that when the husbandman comes he will destroy the wicked men (which the pharisees realized was them) AND it would be given to another nation. Theres no getting around that I can see in this parable, the fact that Jesus was emphasizing a coming to destroy them that rejected him and put himon the cross, in which because so, the Kingdom would be given to another nation (Gentiles). Do you know of someone else that'll get the Kingdom in the future? Your view also changes the order of this parable by about 2000 years, putting his coming 2000 years after the Kingdom was taken from them, and given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof.

Do you sincerely believe your interpretation fits this parable?

Respectfully.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by shag

But according to the parable, the judgment and the coming are one and the same event, how can you separate them?


40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

It is clear that the Kingdom was taken from them. From your viewpoint when the Lord comes in our future, according to this parable, the Kingdom will be given to someone else. Who is it going to be given to in our future per this parable? We all know it was given to the gentiles and that is what Jesus is speaking of in vs. 41 & 43, right? Also, Jesus says in verse 40-41 that when the husbandman comes he will destroy the wicked men (which the pharisees realized was them) AND it would be given to another nation. Theres no getting around that I can see in this parable, the fact that Jesus was emphasizing a coming to destroy them that rejected him and put himon the cross, in which because so, the Kingdom would be given to another nation (Gentiles). Do you know of someone else that'll get the Kingdom in the future? Your view also changes the order of this parable by about 2000 years, putting his coming 2000 years after the Kingdom was taken from them, and given to a nation bearing the fruits thereof.

Do you sincerely believe your interpretation fits this parable?

Respectfully.

My friend I think there is more than one phase to the Kingdom yes there Spiritual phase of the Kingdom was given to the Gentiles however the LITERAL promises are yet to be fulfilled they will never gain as a nation the superority they would have had. The Church through eternity will be His bride and NOT Isreal.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My friend I think there is more than one phase to the Kingdom yes there Spiritual phase of the Kingdom was given to the Gentiles however the LITERAL promises are yet to be fulfilled they will never gain as a nation the superority they would have had. The Church through eternity will be His bride and NOT Isreal.

Jesus said something that makes a phase idea impossible, bro. The kingdom is not something you can see. And we cannot add to that and say that is only for now.

Luke 17:20 GNB Some Pharisees asked Jesus when the Kingdom of God would come. His answer was, "The Kingdom of God does not come in such a way as to be seen.

We cannot change this fact.

We must agree that the COMETH in Matt 21:40 is a reference to Jesus coming to judge the pharisees, even if you do not believe Matt 24 was speaking about that. The parable was nothing different than an AD70 judgment, and the Pharisees knew he meant them and that required their day.

Matthew 21:40 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

I claim this is the COMING Matt 24 deals with. There is no other coming mentioned before Matt 24, except 23:39, and the context there demands GENERATION be those people at that time.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus said something that makes a phase idea impossible, bro. The kingdom is not something you can see. And we cannot add to that and say that is only for now.

Luke 17:20 GNB Some Pharisees asked Jesus when the Kingdom of God would come. His answer was, "The Kingdom of God does not come in such a way as to be seen.

We cannot change this fact.

We must agree that the COMETH in Matt 21:40 is a reference to Jesus coming to judge the pharisees, even if you do not believe Matt 24 was speaking about that. The parable was nothing different than an AD70 judgment, and the Pharisees knew he meant them and that required their day.

Matthew 21:40 KJV When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

I claim this is the COMING Matt 24 deals with. There is no other coming mentioned before Matt 24, except 23:39, and the context there demands GENERATION be those people at that time.

That phase of the kingdom was not visible however that does not do away with that which is visible. Same kingdom two phases the spiritual and the natural or literal.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That phase of the kingdom was not visible however that does not do away with that which is visible. Same kingdom two phases the spiritual and the natural or literal.

What is your grounds for saying there are two phases? Jesus did not say that. We cannot add to the word. We do know the bible teaches a principle that is used in speaking of ADAM, saying first is that which is natural and then that which is spiritual. Although that was said about Adam and the physical body in 1 Cor 15, Paul did no say first is the natural body and then the spiritual, but spoke a truism that seems to be generally applied to many things - first that which is natural and then that which is spiritual. And that does not fit your view of two kingdoms since your view shows a spiritual one before a natural one! When did God ever work like that in anything else?


1 Corinthians 15:46 KJV (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Hey, the field sure does get narrow when we want to discuss BIBLE ONLY, huh brother? Where is everyone?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey, the field sure does get narrow when we want to discuss BIBLE ONLY, huh brother? Where is everyone?

It gets even more narrow when you look for people who say what they mean and mean what they say....

[shag]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My friend I think there is more than one phase to the Kingdom yes there Spiritual phase of the Kingdom was given to the Gentiles however the LITERAL promises are yet to be fulfilled they will never gain as a nation the superority they would have had. The Church through eternity will be His bride and NOT Isreal.

I don't follow you here Elder, about gaining as a nation the superiority that they would have etc., my bad. I'll let you and B. Blume hash that out cause I dont really have a clue what you mean.-lol.

However, while I have your attention I would like to ask you a question concening generation. Under your interpretation of generation meaning race, Jesus would not have said "This generation shall not pass... or all these things will come upon this generation" if it were not possible for it to happen. Is it possible for the jewish 'race" as you see it to pass away before "all these things happen", and if so, please explain what exactly the "passing away" would be. We know Jesus wanted to let them know that the "passing" would not take place, although the "passing" was possible, or it would not have been mentioned. What "passing" of the "jewish race" could be possible before "all these things" take place?


And from other's poster's view of "generation" meaning NT church age, is it even possible for the "NT church age" to "pass away" before all "these things" happen, and if so what would the "passing" be? Again, if its not possible, Jesus would not have even mentioned it at all. I know thats not your claim Bro. Epley, but maybe you or someone else could comment per that view.