((((((((((((TULSA BOMBSHELL))))))))) "49 Elders" Explained!! See this LIST

[PreacherV]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Minds were made up, CP.

Now it's time to unload the TROJAN HORSE ... I say Pastor V writes a resolution for the next GC proposing the elimination of all TV language along w/ a position paper written speaking/warning against the evils that can be found on ALL different types of media, rather than just TV.

Actually, the position paper already exists. It is the position paper regarding internet usage. Just File 13 the TV paper and add TV, cell phones, etc. to the internet position paper.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by PreacherV

Actually, the position paper already exists. It is the position paper regarding internet usage. Just File 13 the TV paper and add TV, cell phones, etc. to the internet position paper.

Is there a process to amend position papers?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Is there a process to amend position papers?

He just stated the process - - insert new word (internet, cell phones, ipods) to replace TV

[PreacherV]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Is there a process to amend position papers?

Uhhh....I dunno. There doesn't appear to be. Have you actually read all of the position papers we have adopted over the years? I'm beginning to wonder if the whole mess is even fixable. We have spent a lot of time painting ourselves into corners over the past 30 years. Now, there's no way to get out without getting messing up the whole floor.

Originally Posted by keith4him

Your are right it is a matter of perpesctive, I guess we all argue from what we think scripture has to say about it, thus a worldview.

Since I have mine and they theirs, let me share mine.

The message of the incarnation was always pro not con, God came, God gave, God dwelt with, infilled, veil was rent, message to go and preach, lay hands on, speak words of faith, etc. I could go on, you build a ministry and life for God on what you are for, not what you are against, it runs against the whole message of the incarnation or missional element of the Gospel.

Yes there are seperation issues, gays in ministry, healing isn't for today arguements, Christ was only a good teacher, etc. I over simplified it but
I think you get my point.

These guys left or will leave because they are against worldliness, TV, slide towards liberal ideas. Their conferences all say the same, a place of safety for our young people, people with the heritage, etc.

Since when do we build evangelism and living for God on safety and protection, if that was the viewpoint of the Lord, he would have stayed in Heaven, and would have never risked the message of salvation with a bunch of sinners.

As the famed CT Studd said, some want to live within the sounds of chapel bells, I want to build a mission a yard from the Gates of hell!

Wow... didn't mean to make you shout !

I think you and everyone else here is missing my point... intentionally or otherwise.

I have said all I intend to say on the subject.


Except this... we all have our own twisted views and yours is just as twisted to your way of thinking as mine is to my way of thinking. Certainly you are no more right or no more wrong than I am for it is all personal opinion and view point. In myview you are unfairly judging men's motives but in your view it is merely calling a spade a spade. Nothing else i can say will change your view and nothing you will say will change mine. Does that make me any more closed minded than you? I dare say it does not. Welcome to the club of personal opinion... you are now a charter member.

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by PreacherV

Greetings all!

I just made the mistake of reading through all the new posts that were added to this thread while I was sleeping the night away in peaceful bliss, knowing that the devil was in the phone booth dialing 911 and that I had just saved a bundle of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico.

Whether we choose to admit it or not, it is true that we all approach this subject with some sort of bias based on our own experiences, and it is apparent that on both sides of the aisle the most difficult thing to do is to be honest with ourselves.

I'll go first....As much as I want to see TV used to spread the gospel (and I do believe there is great potential in advertising and in the concept of redefining televangelism), I also am among the 30% of UPC ministers that would like to see all language regarding TV removed from the manual. My bias....I was raised in a home where there was no TV until I was 13 years old. We were taught that TV was an evil medium that one could not control. If you had one in your home, you would spend all your time watching it and would do nothing productive with your life. Funny thing was a lot of the people I knew that had TV hardly watched it and were amazed by how us Pentecostals couldn't take our eyes off the thing when passing by it....very, very slowly...in the electronics section at Wal-Mart. When my dad bought a little black and white TV, just as had been prophesied, we sat practically glued to the thing for hours at a time.....for like a week. And then we went on with our lives. I grew up, developed a personal walk with God, received my call of God to the ministry and walked right past the TV every day on my way to the will of God for my life until I got out on my own and was able to make the decision not to have a TV--or should I say until the UPC was able to make the decision for menot to have a TV. Therefore, I do not share the view of TV that many others have.

What is your bias? Are you more "principled" than me?

I used to have much greater respect for these holy men of God who were really "taking a stand" against such things that I in my carnality just didn't think was that big of a deal. I thought I was a weaker Christian that would never attain the level of men of such spiritual caliber. But now I believe they are no different than me. I like entertainment.....they like power. Both can easily corrupt a man.

I was shocked at GC when men who have so loudly voiced their opposition to TV were silent on the issue. There was no debate. A prepared statement for the resolution, a prepared statement against it, a couple of statements regarding the proposed amendment, and then the vote. I have heard people whine that KH pushed to the vote too quickly. That is just not true. Anthony Mangun and Irvin Baxter were the only people who made a move to the mic and both got their 2 cents in --AM for the amendment, IB against the amendment.

If the stuff coming into my PM box is true (and I have no reason to doubt the source), then many of these men are not leaving because they are anti-TV. They are begging a man to come on board in spite of the fact that he is pro-TV. Why? Because of his missions connections????

Are they having trouble being honest with themselves, too? Is it possible that underneath their holy motivation for a church free of vice, there is an undergirding of lust for power??

Just my opinion, but I believe they have been looking for a wedge issue that will pull away enough men to give their new ORGANIZATION (emphasis, emphasis) a chance at becoming the most prominent one at the UPC's expense. They got their wedge issue with a resolution that only passed by 80-something votes, and they weren't going to pass up such an opportunity.
Hopefully men who are considering leaving the UPC because they honestly believe the passage of Res 4 violated their godly principles will realize that the WPF may not be as principled as they seek to appear.Okay, now you can all rip me apart. But please first ask yourself, "Am I really being honest with myself?"

POTD...so far.

We need to preach and teach an underlying foundation of principles of Godly living(modesty, honesty, purity) and get away from specific legalisms, passing new laws or enforcing old ones.

Ephesians 4:24-5:6 (KJV)
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to giveg to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good toh the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

CHAPTER 5
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobediencea.

Originally Posted by PreacherV

A month ago I believed such a resolution would never make it past the resolution committee, but now.....I'm not so sure......

When the dust settles, I predict the UPC is going to lean harder to the left....I just hope we don't lean TOO hard.

And if "we" do, what will you do? Will you try to be the counterbalance and hang out over the other side of the boat or will you just jump ship and save your own neck instead of going down with all the rest?

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by philjones

And if "we" do, what will you do? Will you try to be the counterbalance and hang out over the other side of the boat or will you just jump ship and save your own neck instead of going down with all the rest?

Save yourselves from this untoward generation!

[PreacherV]

Originally Posted by philjones

And if "we" do, what will you do? Will you try to be the counterbalance and hang out over the other side of the boat or will you just jump ship and save your own neck instead of going down with all the rest?

Hmmmm....good question. I'll get back with you when I have a more convenient season.

[revrandy]

One thing about the Leadership List....

Seems like a lot of related folks there....