The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

It is an extremely strong reference, rather simple and straightforward. It is always interesting to see how a person tries to make it inoperative. e.g. In one discussion I was offered the idea of progressive revelation.

Thanks you for your sharing! I may come back to this, Col 2:16 and other points.

Steven

I hope you do come back to Col 1:16-17, as it seems to say it all. It is the singlemost plain answer to the entire issue. I answered your questions and would like you to answer some of mine.

However, I maintain it is extremely reaching stretch to say Sabbath is to be kept because Luke said people kept it before atonement even occurred before teaching was actual given about the issue.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have read sporadically through this thread and did a little searching and found that the Council of Laodica (about 363–364 AD) outlawed Sabbath keeping. So, the Catholic Church outlawed it. Which of course means that there were Christians still observing it.

The major concerns of the Council involved regulating the conduct of church members. The Council expressed its decrees in the form of written rules or canons. Among the sixty canons decreed, several aimed at:

• Maintaining order among bishops, clerics and laypeople (canons 3–5, 11–13, 21–27, 40–44, 56–57)
• Enforcing modest behaviour of clerics and laypeople (4, 27, 30, 36, 53–55)
• Regulating approach to heretics (canons 6–10, 31–34, 37), Jews (canons 16, 37–38) and pagans (canon 39)
• Outlawing the keeping of the sabbath (Saturday) and encouraging rest on the Sunday (canon 29)
• Outlining liturgical practices (canons 14–20, 21–23, 25, 28, 58–59)
• Restrictions during Lent (canons 45, 49–52)
• Admission and instruction of catechumens and neophytes (canons 45–48)
• Specifying a Biblical canon (canons 59–60)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea

People were indeed keeping sabbath and all sorts of things were going on at the time. Before the Catholic church started, there were also people standing for transubstantiation. Everything under the moon went on back then. Which is why we have to stand on scripture alone.

The change of sabbath to Sunday was not the reason many did not keep sabbath, just one circle of a view and an erring view at that.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

However, I maintain it is extremely reaching stretch to say Sabbath is to be kept because Luke said people kept it before atonement even occurred before teaching was actual given about the issue.

Oh, I think there are a dozen or more good reasons.

I simply wanted to ask about one and it was interesting to see the answers given.

Shabbat shalom!

Steven

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

However, I maintain it is extremely reaching stretch to say Sabbath is to be kept because Luke said people kept it before atonement even occurred before teaching was actual given about the issue.

Oh, I think there are a many good reasons and the decalogue can make it a spiritual imperative. Look ago, I read Allen Walker's The Law and the Sabbath, and very little has changed since. There are many hand-waves of the sabbath. Transference, abrogation, spiritualization, are three and there may be more. Trivialized and subsumed, checking my notes, are two more. Each non-sabbath-keeper develops their personal argument connections, and I would need a scorecard to keep track. And I believe this is in a sense very much a spiritual revelation, not just one of comparative argumentation. One theory that I have .. you can tell how important a Biblical truth is by how strange and weird are the arguments used against the truf.

And I simply wanted to ask about one point and it was interesting to see the answers given.

Shabbat shalom! To the forum sabbath-keepers.

Steven

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-re...ade-the-change

What is funny is how many non catholics have church every single Sunday. Sunday is THE church day, the day to gather and worship God. And yet claim they are not catholic, or that they don't keep Sunday. The catholic church used to issue apologetics and polemics demanding to know why Protestants keep Sunday while denying the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, because after all keeping Sunday instead of Sabbath was one of the primary marks of catholicism.

Marks... like in the hand or forehead...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

One theory that I have .. you can tell how important a Biblical truth is by how strange and weird are the arguments used against the truf.

And I simply wanted to ask about one point and it was interesting to see the answers given.

Shabbat shalom! To the forum sabbath-keepers.

Steven

Peace be unto you as well, brother Avery.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Oh, I think there are a many good reasons and the decalogue can make it a spiritual imperative. Look ago, I read Allen Walker's The Law and the Sabbath, and very little has changed since. There are many hand-waves of the sabbath. Transference, abrogation, spiritualization, are three and there may be more. Trivialized and subsumed, checking my notes, are two more. Each non-sabbath-keeper develops their personal argument connections, and I would need a scorecard to keep track. And I believe this is in a sense very much a spiritual revelation, not just one of comparative argumentation. One theory that I have .. you can tell how important a Biblical truth is by how strange and weird are the arguments used against the truf.

And I simply wanted to ask about one point and it was interesting to see the answers given.

Shabbat shalom! To the forum sabbath-keepers.

Steven

Why not deal with the passages that convince Non-sabbath keepers to not keep sabbath like colossians 2:16-17? Romans 14? It speaks to me when you won't answer my questions as well. Interesting.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why not deal with the passages that convince Non-sabbath keepers to not keep sabbath like colossians 2:16-17? Romans 14? It speaks to me when you won't answer my questions as well. Interesting.

my dear mfblume, I would have to spend a long time going back over your former discussions,
and why you reject what many sabbath-keepers consider the proper context of those passages.

Sometimes you make a decision that a discussion would be fruitless and repetitive.
Also you wonder if a discussion is a search for truth, or a search for debating points.
And I learned a bit about how you dismissed the Luke passage that I shared. For me, today and probably for awhile .. es suficiente.

Blessings to you in the wonderful name of Jesus,
and to Esais and others - shabbat shalom, find a nice spot of rest, reading, worship before God, time with family, fellowship.

Eschew debating on the sabbath .

In Jesus name,
Steven

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

my dear mfblume, I would have to spend a long time going back over your former discussions,
and why you reject what many sabbath-keepers consider the proper context of those passages.

Sometimes you make a decision that a discussion would be fruitless and repetitive.
Also you wonder if a discussion is a search for truth, or a search for debating points.
And I learned a bit about how you dismissed the Luke passage that I shared. For me, today and probably for awhile .. es suficiente.

Blessings to you in the wonderful name of Jesus,
and to Esais and others - shabbat shalom, find a nice spot of rest, reading, worship before God, time with family, fellowship.

Eschew debating on the sabbath .

In Jesus name,
Steven

I learned quite a bit too. Some are willing to answer questions and others aren't. Courtesy is a good thing. Doesn't take long to answer a simple question.I've asked several times now and not an actual response.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I learned quite a bit too. Some are willing to answer questions and others aren't. Courtesy is a good thing. Doesn't take long to answer a simple question.I've asked several times now and not an actual response.

As I cordially explained, I only glanced over the previous many pages. What I saw were rather exhaustive responses, including to your questions and positions, but I did not analyze them. The fact that you do not accept the responses as satisfactory to your paradigms and situation is not at all surprising, and does not mean that the responses were not given.

It is true that sabbath positions vary a bit. My position is based firmly on the decalogue, with any questions of feast day sabbaths being auxiliary and even diversionary. The key issue is what happened to the 10 Commandments. Christians used to affirm them very strongly (thank you, Roy Moore) even if they did not necessarily live all the commandments. However, I did not engage you in that discussion, and I have no interest in spending hours with you in long drawn-out typings.

Based on how you handled my Luke question, I doubt that I will find much interesting in how you handle the Colossians and Romans question. I tried to respect your hand-wave and move on. Sometimes people are simply stuck in a gear.

As an historical quirk, I went over the sabbath question with Homestead Heritage in the 1990s, and that was an interesting discussion. (As I had just felt the rhythm of the sabbath at an SDA health community, Uchee Pines, and begun to incorporate it into my life, my previous Jewish and Messianic perspectives had never really embraced it as a Biblical imperative.) The sabbath is really to a large extent best as a community rhythm and experience.

As for your giving your personal review of your comments earlier in the thread, it really means nothing to me, since I am not spending an hour or two to review the thread. Not at this time, anyway, it is at most a very modest priority. When you try to tell me "jump", please don't expect me to say "how high"! Thanks.

Steven