We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Saturnalia was celebrated from Dec 14th to Dec 24, followed by the Persian god Mithra's celebration on Dec 25th. They didn't pick these days to fit some unknown celebration conducted by first century Christians. We have no record of any pagans copying off early Christians. Please be my guest to offer more information that shows that pagans copied the early Christians as the date of Dec 25th. Your article writer never does that.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I'll see if I can dig more information up on the subject.

However, let's assume you're right and the date is purely pagan. Christians aren't a passive group of scared children running from shadows. We've got a mandate to take spiritual ground for Christ. That means taking all things under the dominion of Christ. Paul wrote....

Romans 14:4-6
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Check the temperatures.

I've read that shepherds have been seen bundled up keeping their flocks throughout the year as late as the mid 1900's.

[mfblume]

Antipas,

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p. 625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6 C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

...

A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

...

The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:

Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr. agrauleo) in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the paramount reason that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the custom then (as now) to withdraw the flocks during the month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from the open districts and house them for the winter.

http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Antipas,



http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm

I think that based upon that article, it's fair to say that it's highly unlikely that Jesus was born in the Winter months. However, that doesn't preclude allowing for an honorary observance. For example, we do communion on New Year's Eve. If we were to be true to Scripture it would be a full meal held privately in homes on the Passover (or the day before as some scholars propose).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think that based upon that article, it's fair to say that it's highly unlikely that Jesus was born in the Winter months. However, that doesn't preclude setting an honorary observance. For example, we do communion on New Year's Eve. If we were to be true to Scripture it would be a full meal held privately in homes on the Passover (or the day before as some scholars propose).

Good point, however, communion, unlike Christmas, is set forth in scripture as a precedent to be kept. The church has no holy days, according to Gal 4.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Good point, however, communion, unlike Christmas, is set forth in scripture as a precedent to be kept. The church has no holy days, according to Gal 4.

Paul was primarily addressing Jewish legalism regarding observing Jewish holidays in Galatians. But unto the church in Rome Paul wrote:

Romans 14:4-6
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rome was a lot like America, it was multicultural. No doubt Roman Christians brought with them various observances that they wished to glorify Christ with. Paul essentially allows Christianity to flow freely in one's native culture. For example, the Maori people have a "hacka", a war face, often painted, with which they ward off evil spirits. It's not uncommon when ministering among the Maori for them to perform hacka dances in revival meetings, however, this time...their target is Satan himself and they hacka is performed in the name of Jesus Christ. lol

I firmly believe that we'll see a vast array of cultures and customs in the New Jerusalem among resurrected believers. All glorifying Christ.

I'm European in ancestry, the holiday has cultural meaning to me, and I offer my worship within that context.

If you read Paul's writing to the Roman Christians you'll find that our "holiness" brethren are way off base with their condemnation of their brothers who observe Christmas, or any other holiday to the glory of God for that matter.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Paul was primarily addressing Jewish legalism regarding observing Jewish holidays in Galatians. But unto the church in Rome Paul wrote:

Romans 14:4-6
4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rome was a lot like America, it was multicultural. No doubt Roman Christians brought with them various observances that they wished to glorify Christ with. Paul essentially allows Christianity to flow freely in one's native culture. For example, the Maori people have a "hacka", a war face, often painted, with which they ward off evil spirits. It's not uncommon when ministering among the Maori for them to perform hacka dances in revival meetings, however, this time...their target is Satan himself and they hacka is performed in the name of Jesus Christ. lol

I firmly believe that we'll see a vast array of cultures and customs in the New Jerusalem among resurrected believers. All glorifying Christ.

I'm European in ancestry, the holiday has cultural meaning to me, and I offer my worship within that context.

Amen, but Paul noted it is a weak conscience that requires such things.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Good point, however, communion, unlike Christmas, is set forth in scripture as a precedent to be kept. The church has no holy days, according to Gal 4.

As for communion...it's the "Lord's Supper". It has nothing to do with a wafer and a thimble of grape juice. It was to be a full meal, having a single loaf of bread and a single cup, complete with meat and wine. It was to be a time of rememberance and fellowship. Not a ritual or ceremony.

What we observe is a Catholic bastardization of the Lord's Supper that was instituted ceremoniously to accomodate large masses of people in the Roman Catholic cathedrals.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen, but Paul noted it is a weak conscience that requires such things.

Amen! If EB is afraid of a big bad Christmas tree spirit turning him from Jesus, I don't fault him for not having a Christmas tree. But for me...it's just a stupid tree, a pretty decoration, a cultural tradition.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

As for communion...it's the "Lord's Supper". It has nothing to do with a wafer and a thimble of grape juice. It was to be a full meal, having a single loaf of bread and a single cup, complete with meat and wine. It was to be a time of rememberance and fellowship. Not a ritual or ceremony.

What we observe is a Catholic bastardization of the Lord's Supper that was instituted ceremoniously to accomodate large masses of people in the Roman Catholic cathedrals.

I think it is error to be too concerned so as to be technically right, too, though. The message is the point. It's only remembrance. But I think I would enjoy a full meal instead. Good point.