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  #521  
Old 01-25-2020, 05:49 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Yes, the place of rest was only foreshadowed by a trust in God for crops, for example, and other natural things, to send the message that the true and greater sabbath is resting in that kind of faith, giving no need to trust in God for crops and other natural things.

Fixed it for ya.
Yeah right.

The trust and faith for natural things evident by resting on a natural day foreshadowed the trust in God for spiritual life by resting in a spiritual rest, .... more like it.
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  #522  
Old 01-25-2020, 08:43 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Additional points to ponder:
* the church as the Israel of God
* what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law not destroy it
* how does the Sabbath tie into eschatology
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  #523  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:27 AM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Additional points to ponder:
* the church as the Israel of God
* what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law not destroy it
* how does the Sabbath tie into eschatology
Good points to consider!

The church and Israel. The church is the called-out separated congregation or assembly of God. Israel was called-out and separated to be God's assembly of people. They joined in a covenant with God, but broke that covenant repeatedly, so God made a new covenant with them. The church is therefore Israel under the new covenant. Not that the church is a different entity that has had Israel's name and perogatives transferred to it, but rather that Israel has transitioned from the Sinaitic covenant to the Messianic covenant. It's the same nation Israel, just under a new covenant. Now, God's laws have been written in Israel's hearts and minds, whereas before they were external, on tables of stone etc.

Fulfilling the law. Matthew 5:17 KJV
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

This is about the law and the prophets, that is, the Scriptures. Jesus did not come to destroy the Word of God, but to fulfil it. This includes, of course, God's commandments.

Matthew 5:18-20 KJV
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus further explains that He is NOT talking about the old covenant, as a covenant, but the Word of God and the divine instructions given to the people of God (contained in the law and the prophets). The kingdom of God places priority on the commandments of God. Those who break the least of God's commandments shall be considered least in the kingdom, and vice versa. Far from doing away with God's instructions, Jesus is upholding their vital importance. The citizens of the kingdom are more righteous than the Pharisees, because as the NT depicts, the Pharisees did NOT keep God's commandments, but constantly found religious and pious-sounding loopholes to excuse their commandment breaking.

Romans 2:22-29 KJV
Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? [23] Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? [24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. [25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? [28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Fulfilling the law means doing what it says, sincerely, from the heart.

Romans 8:3-8 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Again, here in ch 8, fulfilling the law is contrasted with not being subject to the law of God.

James 2:8-10 KJV
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. [10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point , he is guilty of all.

Again, fulfilling the law means obeying it, contrasted with sinning or transgressing the law of God. Fulfilling the law does NOT mean discovering a pious and esoteric reason to NOT do what God actually commanded.

Sabbath and eschatology. This could be a whole book in itself. But, Sabbath points to completion, eschatological finality, the consummation of all God has been doing. The entire divine calendar provides a general outline of the divine plan for mankind, and the weekly Sabbath is a key part. In fact, the whole calendar seems to be based on the Sabbath, it is the seed of the whole larger system of time keeping as it were. In any event, Sabbath points back to Creation, and forward to the End and completion of God's plan. It serves as a sort of interruption into our regular lives, where eternity intervenes in our life, bringing the beginning and the end together as one, in which we participate.

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Last edited by Esaias; 01-26-2020 at 02:52 AM. Reason: typoes
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  #524  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:48 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yeah right.

The trust and faith for natural things evident by resting on a natural day foreshadowed the trust in God for spiritual life by resting in a spiritual rest, .... more like it.
And since - according to you - we have progressed from the natural to the spiritual, and no longer keep the day, we no longer trust in God for natural things (crops, etc).

By the way, you yourself make a big to-do about how spiritual means of or from the Spirit, and that physical things can indeed be spiritual. Yet, you cannot see that the "physical observance of a physical day" is very much spiritual. You are inconsistent.

You have attempted to obscure that inconsistency by recently talking about a "natural" day instead of a "physical" day, but the inconsistency remains.

Exodus 20:12 KJV
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Here is a commandment that promises a long life in the land. Is this spiritual? Or natural? The fact we can derive a principle from this about God, the church, and eternal life, does it mean we no longer need to physically honour our natural physical parents? Or that there is no longer a very real promise of a lengthened life in the land attached to this commandment?

The Sabbath is spiritual. There is nothing natural about the significance of the seventh day, it derives from the divine act of sanctification whereby God blessed and hallowed it. Just like the Lord's Supper, footwashing, baptism, anointing with oil, laying on of hands, etc. They are SPIRITUAL because their significance is due to the spiritual significance God has given them.
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Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

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  #525  
Old 01-26-2020, 03:01 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Brother Blume asked about the seventh year Sabbath.

The seventh year Sabbath required farmland to lay fallow for a year. I'm not a farmer. But every farmer understands the absolute necessity of leaving the field fallow for a year every so often. Otherwise the crops become void of nutrition and eventually will not grow anything but weeds.

The seventh year was also the year of release for indentured servants. If I had any I would not keep them for longer than 6 years.

It's funny to me, that so many poo-poo certain things of God but seem oblivious to what it is they are actually objecting to.
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  #526  
Old 01-26-2020, 03:08 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Deuteronomy 15:1-4 KJV
At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release. [2] And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it ; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the Lord's release. [3] Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again : but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release; [4] Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the Lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it:

The seventh year also required a cancellation of loan debts. It might be interesting to determine to what all this applies to. Does it apply to business loans? Owner financing the sale of a property? Cash loans? Personal loans only? Etc. It clearly is designed for the protection of the poor to keep them from extended indebtedness. Does it appky to loans to business entities for investment purposes? Or is it contextually limited to loans to poor people?
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  #527  
Old 01-26-2020, 04:31 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And since - according to you - we have progressed from the natural to the spiritual, and no longer keep the day, we no longer trust in God for natural things (crops, etc).

By the way, you yourself make a big to-do about how spiritual means of or from the Spirit, and that physical things can indeed be spiritual. Yet, you cannot see that the "physical observance of a physical day" is very much spiritual. You are inconsistent.

You have attempted to obscure that inconsistency by recently talking about a "natural" day instead of a "physical" day, but the inconsistency remains.

Exodus 20:12 KJV
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Here is a commandment that promises a long life in the land. Is this spiritual? Or natural? The fact we can derive a principle from this about God, the church, and eternal life, does it mean we no longer need to physically honour our natural physical parents? Or that there is no longer a very real promise of a lengthened life in the land attached to this commandment?

The Sabbath is spiritual. There is nothing natural about the significance of the seventh day, it derives from the divine act of sanctification whereby God blessed and hallowed it. Just like the Lord's Supper, footwashing, baptism, anointing with oil, laying on of hands, etc. They are SPIRITUAL because their significance is due to the spiritual significance God has given them.
Very interesting and powerful point.
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  #528  
Old 01-26-2020, 05:52 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

The holy days and feast days are a beautifully meaningful liturgical system of worship, Worship that is biblically tied to salvation, community and the land.

It seems to lose something in our postmodern industrial age.

But, in comparison to mainstream church practices which are heavily influenced by paganized Catholicism to include Santa, the Easter Bunny and all hallows eve, it is vastly superior.
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  #529  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:50 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
The holy days and feast days are a beautifully meaningful liturgical system of worship, Worship that is biblically tied to salvation, community and the land.

It seems to lose something in our postmodern industrial age.

But, in comparison to mainstream church practices which are heavily influenced by paganized Catholicism to include Santa, the Easter Bunny and all hallows eve, it is vastly superior.
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Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

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  #530  
Old 01-26-2020, 02:53 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Very interesting and powerful point.
Thank you. Was hoping I could make it clear what I was trying to say.
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