Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

[Sam]

Thanks, Elder, for being so clear on this. You are often criticized for your comments on here. I'm glad you took the time to respond by giving your personal experience and knowledge about this.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sam

Thanks, Elder, for being so clear on this. You are often criticized for your comments on here. I'm glad you took the time to respond by giving your personal experience and knowledge about this.

You know I am not computer literate so I do not know how to post articles on the web. But I have articles from various religious groups than decades ago taught against women cutting their hair. If you remember someone posted on FCF an article that an AG theologian published concerning the falling away from AG tenets in the AG particularly concerning any emphasis on the HGB evidenced by tongues and he said the beginning of this departure began in the 50's when the AG reversed it's stand on women cutting their hair.
Burr's article was first published in 51 and S. L. Wise the La. District Supt. wrote the forward bemoaning the fact of women cutting their hair in some Oneness circles. The latter rain movement particularly influenced the Coots who had a Bible School in San Antonio(their school was blacklisted because of it.). It was at a meeting there A.D. Vanhoose's wife attended and came home and cut her hair. I was a boy so it had to be in the 50's?
The Church of God was nearly a decade behind the AG. Conn oversaw that departure from CG teaching. His son was on one of our forums advocating the CG really never taught against women cutting their hair but remember I cited several sources disputing this including Tomilson who founded the CoG.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Jay

I do not believe that Bro. Epley was saying that new converts go to Hell because their hair has not grown out yet.

Perhaps I did misunderstand who Bro. Epley was referring to.

Sorry, Bro. Epley.

[Sam]

A couple things I remember about "hair."
I came to the Lord in 1955, was baptized in Jesus' name in October 1955, started going to a UPC church in Racine, WI, received the Holy Ghost Baptism in 1956, left for Bible School in St. Paul, MN later in 1956, came to the Cincinnati, OH area in1957 and have been here ever since. I have attended 3 different UPC churches in three states (Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Ohio) and one ALJC church here in Ohio. I have visited and preached in other OP churches, organized and independent off and on for over half a century.

These observations are personal based on what I've seen over the years. Your observations will be somewhat different based on what you've seen over the years.

"Long" hair on women can mean a longer style than what men are wearing at the time. This can vary from time to time and place to place.

Most of the women I've seen in these churches keep their hair short enough to manage but long enough to fix into the obligatory Pentecostal hair do.

We as Christians just don't agree on the hair issue and all of us need to be more respectful and accepting of each other whether we agree with each other or not. I am not your judge and you are not my judge.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You know I am not computer literate so I do not know how to post articles on the web. But I have articles from various religious groups than decades ago taught against women cutting their hair. If you remember someone posted on FCF an article that an AG theologian published concerning the falling away from AG tenets in the AG particularly concerning any emphasis on the HGB evidenced by tongues and he said the beginning of this departure began in the 50's when the AG reversed it's stand on women cutting their hair.
Burr's article was first published in 51 and S. L. Wise the La. District Supt. wrote the forward bemoaning the fact of women cutting their hair in some Oneness circles. The latter rain movement particularly influenced the Coots who had a Bible School in San Antonio(their school was blacklisted because of it.). It was at a meeting there A.D. Vanhoose's wife attended and came home and cut her hair. I was a boy so it had to be in the 50's?
The Church of God was nearly a decade behind the AG. Conn oversaw that departure from CG teaching. His son was on one of our forums advocating the CG really never taught against women cutting their hair but remember I cited several sources disputing this including Tomilson who founded the CoG.

Ok, depending upon what you mean by
"post articles on the web,"
you are aware that if it is already on the web,
you just find it, R click on the "address," click "copy,"
and then R click, paste in your post?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Ok, depending upon what you mean by
"post articles on the web,"
you are aware that if it is already on the web,
you just find it, R click on the "address," click "copy,"
and then R click, paste in your post?

You have no idea how computer illiterate I am. Most articles I have are very old I doubt seriously if they are anywhere on the web. Church tradition does not necessarily make any correct or incorrect Biblically. My only reason for this input it to verify preaching against women cutting their hair did not start in the 60's by M. E. Burr & Verbal Bean it was a tenant in most "pentecostal" groups and other 'holiness' groups way before these brethren.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You have no idea how computer illiterate I am. Most articles I have are very old I doubt seriously if they are anywhere on the web. Church tradition does not necessarily make any correct or incorrect Biblically. My only reason for this input it to verify preaching against women cutting their hair did not start in the 60's by M. E. Burr & Verbal Bean it was a tenant in most "pentecostal" groups and other 'holiness' groups way before these brethren.

Ah, well then you would have to
reproduce them, in blogger or something,
but you might be quite surprised if you
just entered the opening sentence of a desired ref
in the Google line in quotation marks.

"Address" = the bar that starts "http;"
that should suffice for linking, I hope.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You have no idea how computer illiterate I am. Most articles I have are very old I doubt seriously if they are anywhere on the web. Church tradition does not necessarily make any correct or incorrect Biblically. My only reason for this input it to verify preaching against women cutting their hair did not start in the 60's by M. E. Burr & Verbal Bean it was a tenant in most "pentecostal" groups and other 'holiness' groups way before these brethren.

My paternal grandmother was raised from her deathbed in 1926. She was 28 yrs of age. She heard the Acts 2 message of New Testament salvation in 1933 after being a devout Bible reading, praying Methodist for 21 yrs. She searched it out, promptly obeyed it. She had worn long hair in the Methodist church until the "Roaring Twenties" when the "Bob" came in. She cut her long hair and put on a "chemise" and danced the Charleston.

After she heard, searched out and obeyed the Acts 2 message of salvation, she never cut her hair again. She lived until Oct. 1984. There are those of five generations of her family that have never touched scissors, etc. to their hair since receiving the Holy Ghost over 50 yrs ago. Some have never done so, having received the Holy Ghost at a young age. I can assure you that it is more than a mere tradition, or novelty.

So the idea that S.G Norris or Murray Burr started the "uncut" hair doctrine (teaching) is not true! It may be the first some had or have heard of it, but that doesn't mean that was the beginning. Jesus said that after the Comforter, the Spirt of Truth had come, He would lead and guide into all truth. The Holy Ghost came and Grandma begin to allow the Spirit to be her guide. That was the beginning of a new life for their family. I was born a few short years later.

Grandma and her son, my late father, had never heard the Apostolic Pentecostal message of Acts 2 until 1933, but that didn't mean it had not been heard by others elsewhere. That just happened to be when JESUS visited their little town. Jerusalem didn't know the day of their visitation, but some in the little town of Savoy, Tx did hear His Voice. Today if we will hear His Voice, let's not harden our hearts as in the day of provocation. Moses in rehearsing the wilderness journey to the children of Israel, told them why the journey was necessary. God took them through the long howling wilderness to HUMBLE them, to PROVE them, to SEE WHAT was in their hearts, and to see if they would obey all of His commandments or no. Deut.8: 2-4

Falla39

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You have no idea how computer illiterate I am. Most articles I have are very old I doubt seriously if they are anywhere on the web. Church tradition does not necessarily make any correct or incorrect Biblically. My only reason for this input it to verify preaching against women cutting their hair did not start in the 60's by M. E. Burr & Verbal Bean it was a tenant in most "pentecostal" groups and other 'holiness' groups way before these brethren.

Elder,
I think it is an oversimplification to say that "long hair" has always meant "uncut hair." I think there have always been "holiness" people who have viewed it as being "longer than the current men's style."

This is my opinion. You have been around lots of Pentecostal people over the years and your experience and recollections may be more correct than mine or yours may just better reflect the limitations of the people to whom you were exposed. People to whom I have been exposed or with whom I interacted may have been different than those to whom you were exposed or with whom you interacted.

You know I respect you highly and we agree on some things and we disagree on some things.

[Sweet Pea]

I haven't read all the responses on this thread - I don't have the time for that.... just logged in for a minute - so this may have already been covered:

I am 4th generation Pentecostal. My roots go back to the time of the merger. I have long hair (well below my waist) because it is my preference (although a major pain sometimes). I do not condemn (nor condone) those who choose to cut their hair. I personally believe that is between them and God. However, having said that, let me say the following:

I well remember the time when it "suddenly" became wrong to trim the dead-ends from our hair. Prior to that time, little girls often had bangs and their hair was usually kept trimmed shoulder length or just a little longer. My aunts and my mother kept their hair trimmed to about the middle of the back and usually wore the "roll" around their shoulders (don't really know how to describe it). Sometimes they wore it in a "french twist". It was in the early 60's that at our church, it began being taught that trimming the hair was wrong, at the same time "spit curls" on each side of the forehead were also preached against. Shortly after this time (mid to late 60's) was when all the very elaborate "big" hair-dos started.

I don't know who preached it where that my pastor brought it home to us and began to preach against it, I just know it was difficult for my mom to let my split ends go. But she did - out of obedience. (I rebelled once in my teen years and trimmed the ends so that it would be "even" across my back.)

I also remember having AofG friends who trimmed their hair, but it was "long". It was the late sixties when they began cutting it above the shoulders.

So, I guess my point is that I don't see how it has "always" been a part of our doctrine that long = uncut. ??????