David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[Jehoram]

1. Belonging to Two Organizations. The UPCI Manual says on p. 46: “No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association.” The legal counsel for the UPCI wrote an opinion stating that the General Board is the proper body to determine when this provision applies, and he identified some concerns that need to be considered in this regard. Consequently, the General Board decided that this provision applies to organizations that meet certain criteria such as requiring payment of ministerial dues, requiring subscription to Articles of Faith, and conducting operations that are parallel to the UPCI, even if an organization doesn’t use the precise language of issuing “license.” Specifically, the General Board concluded that it is not proper for someone to be a voting, dues-paying minister of the UPCI and also a voting, dues-paying minister of the new organization called Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship that was recently created at a conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Holding such dual ministerial membership could lead to conflicts of interests, since ministers could vote on parallel offices in two different organizations, would be subject to two different Articles of Faith, would be subject to two different procedures for ministerial discipline, and so on. Moreover, some confusion has already been created on the foreign missions field because of WPF leaders contacting and visiting national UPC ministers. The General Board also noted that each District Board has the responsibility and privilege to implement this provision of the Manual according to the circumstances and timing appropriate to each local situation. The Board’s decision was made after much prayer and discussion and with overwhelming consensus.

Does anyone know who DKB is referring to?

What WPF leaders have been contacting UPC nationals?

Talk about a lack of ethics!

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Gotcha!

You weren't melodramatic - I have often wondered what caused you to choose the road you have taken... You were missed. Blessings you to and your family!

Thanks, you're kind. You are coy though as I have no clue to who you are.

To be fair though, I certainly don't think sculdoggery (is that a word?) is reserved for our mutual friend or the UPC. I've seen it out here too. Especially among his spiritual progeny. Like I said, I don't want to paint the picture as if it's all because of our friend that I left. I'd pretty much decided to not join the UPC before he hired me. But I believed in him and thought he was different from all the rest. It didn't take long for my naivete' to meet reality and the LY thing was the final straw. You'll remember my dynamic little buddy who was also canned. The reasons for that were not only unethical but illegal and 100% political expediency. I could go on and on. It was still devastating though because I'd held out so much hope and kept giving him and it the benefit of the doubt up to that point and didn't want to believe what my instincts were telling me. To this day leaving was the most difficult decision I've ever made. I agonized over it for a couple of years before I finally pulled the trigger on it. On balance though, leaving was the best decision I've ever made even in spite of many difficulties since then. I'll never go back.

BTW: We're having another baby in a couple of weeks. This is the last one, three is a good round number.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

Does anyone know who DKB is referring to?

What WPF leaders have been contacting UPC nationals?

Talk about a lack of ethics!

I think it has to do with the Philippines. There are a couple of other threads about that. Evidently there are those that feel some WPF guys were over there recruiting UPC pastors for the WPF.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by CC1

Pressing Iron,

No offense taken. It is always a touchy situation and fine line when discussing these things. I do not emphasize the things you have mentioned I have said in the past but I have made those observations (and was reminded of why I made them just this past week in several stores in town).

I think one has to remember we are discussing doctrine and philosophies here in general, not commenting on particlar individuals. When I say that a "plain faced" woman with an acne problem or some other such problem is not bringing "glory to God" by not wearing makeup I am not attacking any particular person but making an observation. If a plain faced woman with blemishes reads my post she may take offense but that is not my intention.

Of course one may choose to live ones life adhering to a set of dress codes that are extra biblical . I have no burning desire to convert every old time Pentecostal I meet to my point of view as can be atested by the friendships I have with some of the most conservative people on this forum. Would I like for everyone I ineteact with to come to the same belief and understanding I do of Christianity? Of course! Do I expect that and try to make that happen? No!

I don't sit and one on one argue with OP's and try to get them to do things they don't believe are right. That would be wrong and foolish.

However I will contend for what I believe is right in discussions on the forum and hope that somewhere sometime there are OP's reading who feel the same way but have thought they were alone.

Old time Pentecost has not been the most open culture for discussing it's traditions, doctrines, etc. And for good reason as it turns out since many do not really stand up well under scrunity. Both logically and biblically. That is the debate I am interested in. Not offending individuals.

Another example would be the saints in the pastor's church who I mentioned does not allow internet access for anybody in the church nor anyone under 18 to own a cell phone. I believe that is cultic, controlling, and not biblical. However I am sure there are some wonderful saints in that church and would not disparage them personally for the world. That is the fine line to walk.

Thank you for your response. I believe that you have made comments about the women on more subjects than "acne", though.

I am simply saying that I had a choice, when I first started living for God, to attend Promised Land or a UPC church. I was invited to "World of Pentecost" as it was then and things just never could come together on that.

One night I was working a part time job at Barton Creek Mall selling cosmetics. I remember one night in particular that I was working the floor alone and playing around with the various makeup choices.

I walked over to the mirror and began smearing it all over my face and said, "I am so sick of looking at your face."

You can't imagine how sick of all these things many women are and how sick of being pressured to look like "Catherine Zeta Jones", who you have mentioned, among other women from time to time - in our posting tenure.

You can't imagine how sick women can be of always having to be viewed as something out of Vogue. We want men to love us for who we are and not what we look like with our "mask" painted on.

Fortunately, I have an adoring husband who just last night, after church in the grocery store, told me that he loves going places with me because I am so attractive. Perhaps that is just his view, but it is a wonderful thing for a husband to love me for who I am and not pressure me to compete with a photo enhanced model.

After I received the Holy Ghost, my friend who was never in church but invited me to church (lol), came by to see me. I told her that I know who I am now. She said, "Well, now that you know, put your makeup and jewelry back on." I said, "You don't understand. That doesn't work for me anymore."

She left and I never saw her again. Just heard she died of a Cocaine overdose about 10 years ago.

It was my choice and my direction. I'm not changing it for anyone. I won't do it.

As to other churches that you say are "cultic", well I have been in some of them and God always made a way of escape. I don't "broadbrush" every church by a few.

Just my thoughts......

[scotty]

Originally Posted by CC1

Ah, but Scotty, my warp engine engineering friend, here is the difference. I fully expect you to disagree with my positions regarding so called "standards" and so called "holiness". I expect you to contend for the extra biblical legalism to the best of your intellectual ability. I expect it and look forward to it. I expect and look forward to you contending for why I and other exUPC "liberals" are wrong. I take no offense at you thinking we are going down the wrong path and trying to make a case for that.

But I don't do any of the above

However it appears you do not share this same ability to recieve constructive criticism against your beliefs and organization. You somehow think that one must be a member of the club to make observations about the club and to suggest a "preferred future" for it.

Aaaaaaaaaand , whats wrong with that again??

If you really don't want to be involved in a forum where "outsiders" question the UPC or other old time OP's then I respectfully suggest that you are a prime canidate for the Good News Cafe forum. It would be a shame though because I enjoy most of your posts!

Questioning is different from saying we are wrong, when saints in our churches are being blessed of God then obviously He is pleased with our lives as is. So where is your badge of authority from God to say we are not doing it right? I have no doubt that others in other orgs are being blessed as well therefore I don't question or critic there beliefs. If thats the way they want to live and worship God then that is between them and God. To do as being done on here is just an enjoyment to argue.

The Holy Ghost does not open the scriptures to one in order to win arguments, the Holy Ghost opens the scriptures to one to win souls.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by scotty

Questioning is different from saying we are wrong, when saints in our churches are being blessed of God then obviously He is pleased with our lives as is. .

The Holy Ghost does not open the scriptures to one in order to win arguments, the Holy Ghost opens the scriptures to one to win souls.

Your quote above is a very dangerous statement. There are many Mormon churches that appear to be blessed yet I don't think they are "of God".

There are many Assembly of God and other Trinitarian Spirit filled churches that are being blessed and I don't you would extend the same logic that this means they are pleasing God that you have extended to yourself.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by CC1

Your quote above is a very dangerous statement. There are many Mormon churches that appear to be blessed yet I don't think they are "of God".

There are many Assembly of God and other Trinitarian Spirit filled churches that are being blessed and I don't you would extend the same logic that this means they are pleasing God that you have extended to yourself.

I'm sorry, I ASSUMED you could tell the difference between a blessing of God and worldly favor..
oh, and not all AoG are Trinies.
.just another example of lumping together a whole org.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Thank you for your response. I believe that you have made comments about the women on more subjects than "acne", though.

I am simply saying that I had a choice, when I first started living for God, to attend Promised Land or a UPC church. I was invited to "World of Pentecost" as it was then and things just never could come together on that.

One night I was working a part time job at Barton Creek Mall selling cosmetics. I remember one night in particular that I was working the floor alone and playing around with the various makeup choices.

I walked over to the mirror and began smearing it all over my face and said, "I am so sick of looking at your face."

You can't imagine how sick of all these things many women are and how sick of being pressured to look like "Catherine Zeta Jones", who you have mentioned, among other women from time to time - in our posting tenure.

You can't imagine how sick women can be of always having to be viewed as something out of Vogue. We want men to love us for who we are and not what we look like with our "mask" painted on.

Fortunately, I have an adoring husband who just last night, after church in the grocery store, told me that he loves going places with me because I am so attractive. Perhaps that is just his view, but it is a wonderful thing for a husband to love me for who I am and not pressure me to compete with a photo enhanced model.

After I received the Holy Ghost, my friend who was never in church but invited me to church (lol), came by to see me. I told her that I know who I am now. She said, "Well, now that you know, put your makeup and jewelry back on." I said, "You don't understand. That doesn't work for me anymore."

She left and I never saw her again. Just heard she died of a Cocaine overdose about 10 years ago.

It was my choice and my direction. I'm not changing it for anyone. I won't do it.

As to other churches that you say are "cultic", well I have been in some of them and God always made a way of escape. I don't "broadbrush" every church by a few.

Just my thoughts......

[CC1]

Originally Posted by scotty

I'm sorry, I ASSUMED you could tell the difference between a blessing of God and worldly favor..
oh, and not all AoG are Trinies.
.just another example of lumping together a whole org.

Calling AOG trinitarians is not "lumping" them all together. The vast majority of AOG are trinitarians and it is their official doctrinal position as an organization. Good grief!

I think your statement about discerning between the blessings of God and worldly favor speaks for iteself. You obviously have not had much experience sitting in non Oneness non UPC churches and seeing that the presence of God is there many times and his blessings also. Does not mean they are correct on their Godhead doctrine but never the less it is extraordinary for you to think the work God does in those churches and the move of His Spirit is "worldly favor".

You just keep digging your hole deeper with each response.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by CC1

Calling AOG trinitarians is not "lumping" them all together. The vast majority of AOG are trinitarians and it is their official doctrinal position as an organization. Good grief!

I think your statement about discerning between the blessings of God and worldly favor speaks for iteself. You obviously have not had much experience sitting in non Oneness non UPC churches and seeing that the presence of God is there many times and his blessings also. Does not mean they are correct on their Godhead doctrine but never the less it is extraordinary for you to think the work God does in those churches and the move of His Spirit is "worldly favor".

You just keep digging your hole deeper with each response.

Pardon me to interject CC1 but the blessing of God can not be construed as
having the approval of God either in UPC, or non UPC Churches, or for that matter-The Catholic Church.

God's blessings are independent of his approval of us-just ask Job.

If it were that way, them it would be very easy to tell when one was out of the will, favour, and blessing of God.