The Price of God's Miracle Working Power

[nahkoe]

He does. And you do.

Yes, I found myself quite turned off by the healing evangalists after awhile. I followed Benny Hinn for quite some time, but it's all empty inside a shell of something that might have been real at one point. And no, I'm not in any way speaking ill of him. His books gave me things to think about that led, at one point, to a great revival in my life. It's just, there's not a whole lot left sometimes after you dig a little deeper, and it wasn't just BH that I started feeling that way about. (a note, that was...um a long time ago..14, 15 years ago..?)

I really liked what I bolded below.

I literally laughed out loud when I read this.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I commend your hunger and desire for the deeper things of God. Don't get discouraged when things don't happen over night. Just pray and be led by the Lord. He will direct you in the way He desires for you.

I've been far more dragged along for the ride than seeking, at least to this point. I've been attending church again since June, after 8 years out of church (and I wasn't in an Apostolic church then). I wasn't looking when I kind of got set down right in the middle of my church. God did some quick work to get me to go back a second time too. I'm only just now really coming to accept where I am, and maybe wish I had the desire for the things of God like I did in the past (pre 8 years out of church). Ok, I know I'm heading that direction, to that desire for God's moving in my life. To this point, that's been mostly extremely painful, but I know God is more than what I've seen the last 5.5 months.

That said, I know your advice is sound. I also appreciate the list at the bottom of this post and I will look into that more closely.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Nahkoe-

I think Prax has a point. I grew up in Jeffersonville, IN... in the shadows of Branham Tabernacle. This was in the early 60's. I can remember the crowds, but, because we weren't a religious family, we had no idea who he was, or what was happening. Miracles of healing and deliverance happen among OP's, but, for various reasons, they go unnoticed. Partly because "we don't toot our own horn" so to speak. We don't publish great healing magazines and have telecasts. And, too, also for various reasons, we are regarded as the "unwanted step children" of Pentecost.

The fact is, competition among the Healing Evangelists was keen, to say the least. Some claims were...well, incredible. Not saying God can not and does not do some of the miracles they claimed. Every preacher seemed to be trying to out do the other. And this, among other things led to the demise of the Healing Revival.

And it may be good that we don't "brag" too much about what God does among us. That could, and often does, lead to spiritual pride. It seems the disciples handled this quite well. They didn't speand alot of time advertising the mighty works of God. I don't see that they spent much energy debating and discussing the miracle working power of God. They just DID IT.

I commend your hunger and desire for the deeper things of God. Don't get discouraged when things don't happen over night. Just pray and be led by the Lord. He will direct you in the way He desires for you.

In studying, however, you may want to study the Life of Christ. His life gives a excellent idea what God is doing in this day.

1. Apostleship- Calling the disciples, church government
2. Pastorship- Comforting, carrying for and teaching the sheep
3. Teaching- Teaching the Gospel, explaining, expounding the Word
4. Evangelist- Healing, travelling from city to city
5. Prophet- Foetelling His death, giving signs of His Coming, the 2nd Coming.

I may not have those in the right order, as its been awhile since I've studied it.

[nahkoe]

You speak nothing but truth here. This is exactly what it all comes down to. God sure hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Now I'll give the short answer- we don't see as much of the Power of God because we just ain't paid the price! Its easier for us to talk about it and debate it then to get in the closet and PRAY.

Notice I said WE and US?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

That's not how I meant that to be read. I don't even know how to clarify so I'm going to just leave it alone. Just please know that I didn't intend what you seem to have seen here. I also wouldn't say that there aren't stories to equal. I know that given the power I've felt in my church, the power that drew me in and kept me there, there have to be stories. But I haven't seen them yet.

Sorry for the mistake. I have to ask here what do you mean by you have not seen them yet? Seen what? The miracles or seen them printed or heard them spoke about like Pat Boone spoke about one? Because there are tons fo books, tapes, CDs videos etc etc etc that relate many miraculous happenings.

That doesn't mean they're not there. You said what I meant in another post. "Well therein lies the problem. It's not that we don't have it, it's that the world does not know about it." I'm looking and I'm sure I'm going to see stories, because I'm sure they exist and I'm sure that God is God and His power is present where He is.

Well I thought this started with a book by Pat Boone relating one story...the question was asked about the same power...why they and why not us....you can find many many OP books and such that relate similiar happenings. But if you are talking about a personal encounter that is a different issue

As for starting a thread, I'm really starting to feel like I'm completely incapable of posting on any Apostolic forum. I've been posting online for 9 years with never this many problems with communication and I'm trying really hard to take what's of value to me w/o being hurt, but really once again I post something and I'm crying reading the response. Not that it was hurtful in itself, it's just not what I meant to say and I don't know what I said wrong. I keep feeling like I'm stepping on toes. I know I don't fit in here, I haven't been back in the church much longer than I've been reading here. I'm trying to learn what's expected here and feel like I just can't stop tripping and falling on my face.

I have not seen anyone attacking you. People are just making points and asking questions to try to understand what you are trying to say. If the points people make feel like an attack then maybe you are mis-understanding someone elses point or intent.

Like when I said "so?"...that's not an attack...Im asking "so? is that all?" because the post does not prove the claim it was meant to prove....I then stated pretty much that. This is text chat and in this sort of medium while typing it can be really hard to communicate. It is NOT just because this is an Apostolic board. I see this happen on all boards. I see it on tech boards where someone asks for help and the person responding speaks in geek (yes I meant geek) :-)

As it starts coming back to life, I'll keep that in mind. I've been more looking for stories because I long to desire the power of God. I'm finally starting to accept that He really has accepted me. I know more of my story might help you read my meaning within my words better. I guess I should start putting a bit more of that out here.

Do you need to see the miracles really in order to know God accepts you? Or are you in need of a miracle in your life for some reason? The best thing I can say is...pray daily. Read the word daily. Do NOT let your thoughts get away from you. Dash them! It's hard not to let our thoughts run on with doubts, but if possible dash them and put your whole trust in the Lord. I was just reading the chapters about Elijah, because of what the brother posted in the other thread. The widow woman barely had enough wheat and oil to live on. She was preparing their last meal and then to die.

There is no record that God gave them more wheat and oil or anything else....just that the wheat and oil they had God said through the prophet that it will not run out. Sometimes the biggest miracles are the ones least noticable

Remember how Jesus fed all those people with just 7 loaves and fishes? Nobody was in awe of that miracle...they didn't even notice really. The gasped in awe when the dead came back to life and when the blind eyes were opened.....

Hmmmmm. Well anyways :-)

What is Keith's user name? I'll make sure to mention his name if I do post looking for stories and testimonies.

Keith4Him

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

As for starting a thread, I'm really starting to feel like I'm completely incapable of posting on any Apostolic forum. I've been posting online for 9 years with never this many problems with communication and I'm trying really hard to take what's of value to me w/o being hurt, but really once again I post something and I'm crying reading the response. Not that it was hurtful in itself, it's just not what I meant to say and I don't know what I said wrong. I keep feeling like I'm stepping on toes. I know I don't fit in here, I haven't been back in the church much longer than I've been reading here. I'm trying to learn what's expected here and feel like I just can't stop tripping and falling on my face.

I think you are as capable as anyone else to post here or anywhere else. You keep your peace and you do it with a Christian spirit. You'll have to understand something about this forum. Many have been posting for a long time, and many know each on a persoanal level. They speak with frankness and forthrightness because there is a familairity among them. Theres really no communication problem -its just online conversations lose something along the way. A comment made in jest can be, and often, is taken wrong. If you say something others disagree with... be prepared. But, remember, you can do likewise.



This forum. like all forums, has its faults. And so do the members, myself included. But, overall, its a good place to fellowship, to share, to learbn and even have a little fun. You fit in fine. I know the feeling though. I'm not UPC, I'm a one-stepper and I'm a mod. Or at least thats what I'm told. I'm the square peg in the round hole. And falling on your face? Why we all do that, don't we gang? Huh... gang? Helloooo.... Well, I do. And when you trip and fall, look to your right. That'll probably be me right down their on the floor too.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I think you are as capable as anyone else to post here or anywhere else. You keep your peace and you do it with a Christian spirit. You'll have to understand something about this forum. Many have been posting for a long time, and many know each on a persoanal level. They speak with frankness and forthrightness because there is a familairity among them. Theres really no communication problem -its just online conversations lose something along the way. A comment made in jest can be, and often, is taken wrong. If you say something others disagree with... be prepared. But, remember, you can do likewise.



This forum. like all forums, has its faults. And so do the members, myself included. But, overall, its a good place to fellowship, to share, to learbn and even have a little fun. You fit in fine. I know the feeling though. I'm not UPC, I'm a one-stepper and I'm a mod. Or at least thats what I'm told. I'm the square peg in the round hole. And falling on your face? Why we all do that, don't we gang? Huh... gang? Helloooo.... Well, I do. And when you trip and fall, look to your right. That'll probably be me right down their on the floor too.

Hmmmm....I dunno...I heard Baxter said "you are perfect".....

[OneAccord]

Ah... but how is "perfect" defined? That is the question. Whose Baxter?

[Praxeas]

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ead.php?t=9780

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Sorry for the mistake. I have to ask here what do you mean by you have not seen them yet? Seen what? The miracles or seen them printed or heard them spoke about like Pat Boone spoke about one? Because there are tons fo books, tapes, CDs videos etc etc etc that relate many miraculous happenings.

I haven't seen, since being back in church, very many written testmonies. I'll take more than partial blame, I really have been struggling with far more important things (like..oh...repentance, salvation type things), and I've been busy with school and my kids too. I do try to at least keep up on current posts here and on another forum. I've wondered why there aren't more testimonies, and yet I know I haven't posted some of the things God has done for me recently either. This thread just got me typing what had been sitting in the back of my mind.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well I thought this started with a book by Pat Boone relating one story...the question was asked about the same power...why they and why not us....you can find many many OP books and such that relate similiar happenings. But if you are talking about a personal encounter that is a different issue

Do you know if I can find those books in a library though? I know I found a few history books about Azusa Street in my university library, but not a whole lot of anything else (I admit that was more than I expected to find there). I haven't been to a public library to check yet. I'm a poor college student so buying books is something for my future not my present. lol I'm starting to hear some names over and over and noting those to google when I have more time.

As for a personal encounter, I go into that further below.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I have not seen anyone attacking you. People are just making points and asking questions to try to understand what you are trying to say. If the points people make feel like an attack then maybe you are mis-understanding someone elses point or intent.

Like when I said "so?"...that's not an attack...Im asking "so? is that all?" because the post does not prove the claim it was meant to prove....I then stated pretty much that. This is text chat and in this sort of medium while typing it can be really hard to communicate. It is NOT just because this is an Apostolic board. I see this happen on all boards. I see it on tech boards where someone asks for help and the person responding speaks in geek (yes I meant geek) :-)

I haven't felt attacked here. Frustrated cuz I figured I knew how to communicate online after a few years. lol I dislike misunderstandings on either side. This thread has gone quite well, IMO. lol I think you nailed it when you made the comment about geek. I'd be far more comfortable reading and responding there. lol I get that culture and language, this I'm still learning. I'm trying to be a little less hard on myself for not getting all the nuances yet, but it's as frustrating for me as trying to communicate in Spanish. Not here that I can recall, but I have been accused of doing some attacking when asking questions. Or, for asking questions that were assumed to be meant as an attack at least. I've also seen some quite innocent threads turn into less than in a hurry. More of the foreign culture thing and I'm feeling a little gunshy after some of those (I'm not sure any of those were here though).

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Do you need to see the miracles really in order to know God accepts you? Or are you in need of a miracle in your life for some reason?

No. This goes back to my, well I guess it's a testimony.

At one point in my life, I was living a life where the power of God, and miracles, and signs, and wonders, and changed lives and and and, were something I experienced and saw frequently. I walked away from it. I knew God, I knew what the Bible says, and I made choices to do quite a few of the things God spends a lot of time explaining how much He hates. I wasn't looking to come back to God, but He gave me an opportunity to do so anyhow. The devil hasn't been too happy with this change in plans, I'm sure that's where a large portion of this battle I've been fighting has come from. I have really struggled with feeling like I should even "be here". I'd often just sit down and decide I shouldn't go back to church, God didn't really want me there anyhow, cuz look at all this stuff I did and (knowing sin is sin and all sin is washed away by the Blood..) I didn't just do little sins, oh no, I did big things and if anyone in the church knew they wouldn't want me there anyhow. As I've come out on top of this (at least I hope I have now), my mind goes back to my more distant past. I'm starting to feel like maybe that sort of relationship that I had with God might be possible. If it's possible, just maybe I want that. I haven't really let myself want it yet though. I've been wanting to see testimonies because they just do something. For me, it's a reminder of who God is and what He wants for His people, for me. I know the experience isn't God, I seek God not the experience, but where God is, His power is. I'm hesitating with a decision right now to fully seek God and every time I read about something God did it changes something just a little bit inside of me. I'm in a place where I guess I want to want to go after a deeper relationship with God.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The best thing I can say is...pray daily. Read the word daily. Do NOT let your thoughts get away from you. Dash them! It's hard not to let our thoughts run on with doubts, but if possible dash them and put your whole trust in the Lord. I was just reading the chapters about Elijah, because of what the brother posted in the other thread. The widow woman barely had enough wheat and oil to live on. She was preparing their last meal and then to die.

There is no record that God gave them more wheat and oil or anything else....just that the wheat and oil they had God said through the prophet that it will not run out. Sometimes the biggest miracles are the ones least noticable

Remember how Jesus fed all those people with just 7 loaves and fishes? Nobody was in awe of that miracle...they didn't even notice really. The gasped in awe when the dead came back to life and when the blind eyes were opened.....

Hmmmmm. Well anyways :-)


Keith4Him

Thanks for this. These are exactly the sort of things God is doing for me right now, just little maybe you wouldn't notice them if you weren't looking, sort of things. But they're there and they're making a huge difference in my life right now. Every time one of these things happens, or I notice it, I'm in awe.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

I think you are as capable as anyone else to post here or anywhere else. You keep your peace and you do it with a Christian spirit. You'll have to understand something about this forum. Many have been posting for a long time, and many know each on a persoanal level. They speak with frankness and forthrightness because there is a familairity among them. Theres really no communication problem -its just online conversations lose something along the way. A comment made in jest can be, and often, is taken wrong. If you say something others disagree with... be prepared. But, remember, you can do likewise.

LOL! Thanks.

Originally Posted by OneAccord

This forum. like all forums, has its faults. And so do the members, myself included. But, overall, its a good place to fellowship, to share, to learbn and even have a little fun. You fit in fine. I know the feeling though. I'm not UPC, I'm a one-stepper and I'm a mod. Or at least thats what I'm told. I'm the square peg in the round hole. And falling on your face? Why we all do that, don't we gang? Huh... gang? Helloooo.... Well, I do. And when you trip and fall, look to your right. That'll probably be me right down their on the floor too.

I'll help you up if you help me up.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Probably the only man that I ever knew that is as stout 3 stepper as I am today was my Dad.

When I was about 14 years old (about 1954) Gayle Jackson pitched his huge tent in our community. Many people were getting healed, delivered from every sort of bondange, including demonic possession. His meeting which lasted for many weeks shook the foundation of our community, though it was strong Catholic. I would listen to those services on radio which was being broadcasted live and in real time. Those services stirred my heart. I begged my Dad that we could go to that meeting. I will never forget his answer as long as I live, "Son, I would not walk across the street to see one of those men." I'll never forget it nor will I ever forget the expression on his face when he said it. I knew that he meant it and I knew why. He was a stout three stepper.

I knew that Trinitarianism was wrong and all who followed after that error would not spend eternity in the realm of the blessed. I knew that their baptism acknowledged three. Yet, I knew that God was there and operating in a powerful and in a wonderful, beautiful way. His presence there was real. I knew that. So, I answered my Dad, "Dad, if God is not too good to visit over there, why are we too good?" I'll never forget his answer either. Though sweet, it was too the point and very humble.

In another year, I was able to make the meetings of some of those Voice of Healing ministers such as Freeman, Hayes, Allen, Coe and many others too. Like T.W. Barnes who attended some of their meetings, I saw first hand the moving and operation of the Holy Ghost. It was God because "no man can do these works except God be with him," as was said about Jesus by the Phairasees.

Actually, I was very much greived that we as Oneness, strong three steppers did not see the Miracle Power of God in our midst as they saw it in there's. Though I would never compromise my understanding of the full requirements of eternal soul salvation, as I have received that from the Lord, I made friends with some of these men. I have tried to talk to them about what God requires to be saved. None as far as I know took me seriously, only dismissively. Yet, they were kind and sweet in that dismissal, assuring me that their salvation was as real for them as I considered mine. I talked to Allen about it. I talked to Alton L. Hayes. I talked to J Charles Jessup too, though I never saw too much of the move of God in Jessup meetings. Yet, each will have to give an account of what they heard from me.

Why I was drawn to those meetings where God moved so marvelously, can only be answered by the fact that God moved so marvelously. But what would account for the fact that God would move in such a way for them and we (strong three steppers) would not see such a move among ourselves within the oneness ranks except for Branham (one stepper) who was actually the beginning of the great Healing Revivals that began in the mid 40s just after WW II?

Why was not God moving and working among US three steppers? I've come to understand some things both by illumination of the spirit by the Spirit and also by the Word of God that I would not have come to understand but for that association.

I will not discuss all that I've come to understand, as I know that on these little internet forums, I would pay the price in ridicule, as I have before in my attempts to share a few simple things. But, I will say this much and little more, miracles and healings are largely and for the most part among those who are full of the Holy Ghost, having paid the price in fasting, prayer and in the Word....who....catch this...who preach "Jesus Christ, THE SON OF GOD." Did you get it? There is Miracle and healing POWER among those who are FULL of the Holy Ghost who have also paid the price in prayer, fasting and in the Word WHO ALSO PREACH JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD without apology.

Oneness people can scarcely even mention the SON OF GOD, without having to pause long enough to explain how he is both the Father and the Son. Then, it becomes a lesson in theology having little to NO miracle and healing worth.

Too many three steppers have as much Holy Ghost as the best of those fellows and have also paid the price as much as the best of those fellows have. Yet, too many of the three steppers also lack the manifestation of the power of God that they could very easily have with only an unapologetic saving, healing, miracle message of Jesus Christ, THE SON OF GOD. It is in preaching the SON, the lamb, the sacrifice, the propitiation, the burden bearer, the suffering, uplifted SON OF GOD that the miracle healing power is unveiled. There is POWER in preaching (the blood) the Son of God...without a lesson in theology that weakens or dilutes the message.

The very first message that the new convert, Paul the Apostle preached was "Jesus Christ, the Son of God" without a lesson on the Godhead. It was the message of the Apostles who saw by their hands, through their preaching, many signs, wonders and miracles were wrought.

So, over the years, I've seen many good, honest and pure minded three steppers question these men and the miracles that follow their preaching as something amiss, some even calling it the work of the devil. They were so mistaken. They could have had the same things themselves except for being hung up on the Oneness doctrine so strongly that they could not bring themselves to preaching THE SON OF GOD, without a lesson in theology. The Trinitarians did not have to apologize for preaching the Son of God pausing to explain how he is the 2nd person in the Godhead. They just preached JESUS, the Son of God and saw manifested what was provided by the office of Sonship...which is the BLOOD.

I'm sure that I will be critisized by this also, but you asked me a question. I will not go too much further in this because of the ready arrows that stay trained on me most of the time anyway. In fact, I would not have shared this much except that I felt led to go ahead and do it. I have never shared this on any forum, even though I have been on these forums for more than ten years. I probably will never repeat it again. Certainly there are other things that I will never share in public but have from time to time, in private.

God bless. I hope this explains what you see as an undestandable dichotomy in my stance.

Your right, Bro Strange. The preachers in the book of Acts never went into the theology of the Son of God from any perspective....it came later in the epistles.

Someone I know on another forum asked me to find verses that prove Jesus is God in the book of Acts and in Romans. I know of some in Romans, but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head from the book of Acts and I still can't.