Why is Church Attendance Dropping?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Chosen, you probably don't know much about me. My mother was one of the estimated 40,000 to 45,000 Americans who died from treatable conditions in 2007 because they didn't have necessary insurance, nor the money, to see a specialist.

I've not been a huge fan of Obamacare, but at least it was a plan. When various states opted out of the exchanges, it drove the cost up. Many states had good reason to opt out though. Not criticising.

I have friends and family in Canada (Ontario). So, I've been there, saw it, and we've talked quite a bit about the systems. Their system isn't perfect, but it's far better than ours, and they'd take it over ours any day. Nowhere near 40,000 to 45,000 citizens have died because they couldn't get treatment, which was the estimated yearly numbers in the United States.

My lady love, Christina, lived in the U.K. for several years, right inside, Ely. She saw and experienced the system in Britain, and was impressed. When she came back to the U.S. she had no insurance. Today, her mother is ailing (strokes, dementia) and the insurance is a total mess. So she's seeing first hand first hand how bad it is here.

She and I have been to Amsterdam, their system is also impressive, compared to the U.S.

Had my mother lived in any of these countries, the chances are high that she'd be alive today.

So, my support for universal healthcare is a very personal thing.

I figure if we can afford to waste trillions dropping bombs all over the planet, give away hundreds of billions in tax subsidies and tax deductions for the ultra wealthy, we can afford to insure that every American has basic health insurance.

Why do you judge so harshly and not ask questions?

I wasnt judging go back and look at what you said to me. You got all in a tizzy because I said obamacare was the worse thing that ever happened to America. So I tried to pass it off with a joke. But I'm sorry about your Mom, but no one ever died on accident bro! God has a plan, and when that plan is up, it's up for each and everyone of us. No one is living a day longer then what God appointed for us. The day we were born, there was already a day set for us to die. Take solace in His love, and keep your mind stayed on Him. He holds all things in His hand. "Even the wrath of man shall yet praise Him", so nothing can happen He didn't already for see.

But I'm sorry bro if that was a touchy area. I just was cracking a joke. I didn't know, please forgive me.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You want church to look like group?

Well you can look at it that way...or you can see having a single man that pushes for emotional response with a captive audience in a pulpit focused setting could result in a "Herod" situation......Acts 12:21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. 22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. 23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

No one is living a day longer then what God appointed for us. The day we were born, there was already a day set for us to die

No scripture that He has appointed us an hour of death...scripture says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement.

If our death is a chosen appointment, why fight illness and disease? Why treat and bind up wounds? Punish a murderer? Why? He was just an unwitting instrument in the hand of the Almighty to bring about a scheduled and appointed end. Punish abortionists? Baby was meant to die right? That's what you implied! If someone dies, it's because it's the time, place and method that God planned and ordained!

Do you even think before posting that drivel?

Its God's will that NONE should perish!

Death was and IS NOT the will of God but the result of sin because of Adams transgression.

Man lost his mom due to a preventable and treatable illness and decides to support a health care system that he feels would have made a difference in the result and you tell him in so few words to buck up and that he couldn't do anything to save her anyway cause God apparently is going around whacking people like disembodied Death from Final Destination and the addition of the backhanded sympathy was a particularly warm and loving touch.

[n david]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Its God's will that NONE should perish!

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You missed it.

[n david]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Man lost his mom due to a preventable and treatable illness and decides to support a health care system that he feels would have made a difference in the result and you tell him in so few words to buck up and that he couldn't do anything to save her anyway cause God apparently is going around whacking people like disembodied Death from Final Destination and the addition of the backhanded sympathy was a particularly warm and loving touch.

Longest. Sentence. Ever. Do you even punctuate?

The loss of a family member, especially a parent, is a terrible thing to have to face. Aquila and I have had our share of disagreement on the healthcare issue. There is no guarantee any healthcare system could or would have changed the outcome. When using a personal story to advance a political cause, one must understand not everyone will agree. There may be points made or questions asked which are uncomfortable or even rude and out of order. Unfortunately that should be considered when posting personal stories like Aquila's.

[n david]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

No scripture that He has appointed us an hour of death...scripture says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgement.

If our death is a chosen appointment, why fight illness and disease? Why treat and bind up wounds? Punish a murderer? Why? He was just an unwitting instrument in the hand of the Almighty to bring about a scheduled and appointed end. Punish abortionists? Baby was meant to die right? That's what you implied! If someone dies, it's because it's the time, place and method that God planned and ordained!

Do you even think before posting that drivel?

Its God's will that NONE should perish!

Death was and IS NOT the will of God but the result of sin because of Adams transgression.

What is your take on Job 14:1-5, specifically v 5?

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass"

It is entirely possible for God to have an end date set for everyone, factoring in illnesses and diseases, etc.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by n david

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

You missed it.

So do you believe that each and every death is planned, orchestrated and executed in some way by God?

I mean do you realize what kind of quandry that puts us in? If we fight illness we are basically fighting a losing battle against an all powerful God that cannot be defeated and if the illness is cured, well that's great because luckily it wasn't in God's to do list to whack Mamma today...He just wanted her to suffer a bit but wasn't going to actually take her because it wasn't her time...becasue if she died before her appointed time, well that means that God isn't pulling those particular strings in the way that idea implies and if it WAS her time and through man's invertention, the hand of God is stayed..well....that calls into question God's power and omnipotence.

So either each and every person has a date and time set in stone and nothing we can do can change that OR we acknowledge that sickness, illness and disease isn't something that God wanted but that we struggle under a curse brought not by God but by the consequence of sin.

Dude I'm not saying that everybody has the potential to be healthy and pain free....aim just saying maybe we shouldn't be giving God the credit when someone dies as if He pulled the trigger?

Can we at least agree on that point?

Yes, the above scripture was used poorly on my part and I apologise on using weak proof texts to leverage a point...it's something I wouldn't tolerate from anyone else and I'm shamefully admitting that I am prone to transgressing in the same manner.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by n david

Longest. Sentence. Ever. Do you even punctuate?

The loss of a family member, especially a parent, is a terrible thing to have to face. Aquila and I have had our share of disagreement on the healthcare issue. There is no guarantee any healthcare system could or would have changed the outcome. When using a personal story to advance a political cause, one must understand not everyone will agree. There may be points made or questions asked which are uncomfortable or even rude and out of order. Unfortunately that should be considered when posting personal stories like Aquila's.

No, punctuation is of the devil.<----- See that? Thats a period. That's punctuation. That's sin. I'm gonna split hell wide open for it.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by n david

What is your take on Job 14:1-5, specifically v 5?

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass"

It is entirely possible for God to have an end date set for everyone, factoring in illnesses and diseases, etc.

Ok. Let's go with that. Is abortion carrying out the will of God? If so, God is perfectly fine with babies being murdered in the womb... I mean all life is precious until God says it isn't right?

If it ISNT the will of God, that means that things can and do happen that can take us before our "time".

What is our time?

We don't know and have no way of knowing so I'd rather be the good guy and assume that God wants that old man over there to live to the ripe old age of 120 and be shot by a jealous husband than to be going around telling people that their loved one dying was an act of God.

Doing otherwise opens a huge can of worms and makes God look bad in the process.

Why did so and so die?

So and so died because back in the garden Adam sinned and brought death and sickness into the world and because of that curse we face sickness and illness.

So blame is on sin bringing forth sickness and death NOT God.


As far as what what Job 14 says...it seems to me from readingit that Job is pouring out his heart in more grief than revelation about the workings of God in the process of death... I mean he's getting pretty dark with the images.

He tells God that man can't pass the boundary set that is the limit of his days and asks that God "turn away" almost as if he is reasoning with God to fudge a bit on his time so that he can finish whatever task he needs to.

Very interesting passage that I'll have to read more on.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I wasnt judging go back and look at what you said to me. You got all in a tizzy because I said obamacare was the worse thing that ever happened to America. So I tried to pass it off with a joke. But I'm sorry about your Mom, but no one ever died on accident bro! God has a plan, and when that plan is up, it's up for each and everyone of us. No one is living a day longer then what God appointed for us. The day we were born, there was already a day set for us to die. Take solace in His love, and keep your mind stayed on Him. He holds all things in His hand. "Even the wrath of man shall yet praise Him", so nothing can happen He didn't already for see.

But I'm sorry bro if that was a touchy area. I just was cracking a joke. I didn't know, please forgive me.

No one died on accident?

Soooo the first man who was murdered....God seemed pretty upset about that whole thing.... could it be that God may... I dunno...may have not wanted Abel to die right then by the hand of his brother? Was God more mad that Cain murdered his brother because life is precious? Or because God had intended to take Abel out but Cain killed him first? I dunno bro...when you start making statements like,"No one dies on accident" you have to go through these thought processes.