Your Greatest Need

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But thats only HALF the message of the cross. Jesus bore his cross. He finished his work. Now we must take up ours and die to ourselves.

I am not resisting Jesus finished work as our sacrifice. I resist the offer of salvation without taking up our cross. I resist the message of unconditional love because it is not Biblical.

Michael, I will have to disagree with you. I absolutely agree that Salvation has conditions... One must come into covenant with the finished work of Calvary, take up their cross and follow. I absolutely believe that.

However, even if someone doesn't do that... they're still loved. Not with our simple human love, but the JUST and FAIR love of God. He would that none perish, but that all have everlasting and abundant life. But God is a gentleman with His Grace.

There are people in hell that God still loves them unconditionally. I don't see in Scripture where the love has conditions, just the salvation. Love alone won't save us... and that's the issue here. People don't understand that true, agape, God like love also contains wrath and justice within it. They want to gather in their cum ba ya circles, hold hands, and just speak acceptance over one another.... but thats only one aspect of Love.

Love also means, you won't let someone go without the consequences to their choices, that you love them enough to let them have free will, and make their decisions.... and you love them enough that even as they destroy themselves and turn the other direction from you... you still love them.

Oh, God's love is unconditional, but it alone wont' redeem a lost soul. That's where the love must be returned, from man to God.. in a life laid down for Him.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

You guys make things complicated.

No its just that you have bit into strage fire doctrine.

Heres something ELSE Jesus said about entering eternal life:

Luke 13:22-27

13:22 He went on his way through cities and villages, teaching, and traveling on to Jerusalem. 13:23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?”

He said to them, 13:24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able. 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen up, and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside, and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ then he will answer and tell you, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 13:26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 13:27 He will say, ‘I tell you, I don’t know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.’

Note who said this? Me or JESUS?

If JESUS said these words would you agree there are conditions to salvation?

What about the verses I have already given? Comment on THEM please.

Jesus never promised unconditional love to his hearers. Rather he instructed them concerning the way they must walk if they want to be saved.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bro Robbins

There are people in hell that God still loves them unconditionally. I don't see in Scripture where the love has conditions, just the salvation.

Jesus

15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love.

John 15:10

If you keep his commands you will remain in his love. Now THATS simple.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

John 15:10

If you keep his commands you will remain in his love. Now THATS simple.

You are misinterpreting what In His Love means. Brother... I don't disagree that Salvation has conditions... absolutely. But this scripture isn't saying He won't love you anymore... not at all. It's saying, when you keep His commandments, then you remain within that covenant relationship to benefit and receive from that love..... i.e., salvation, redemption, righteousness. If this verse were saying that the love has conditions, under the rules of the Greek language here, there would have had to have been different words used. The key to this part of this verse is... "abide in" It doesn't say that the love stops... it is saying the abiding is what stops.

There are no Scriptures that say if someone rejects following Christ that they are no longer loved by Him. Again, your confusing the relationship which does have conditions with the love that does not.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

I'm sorry... I'm a simple guy... but so much of what you are talking about here is lauding someone's flesh, and making their flesh feel good... even the little girl playing soccer (and don't get me started bout litle girls being allowed to play sports). Just seems like your endorsing heaping huge praise on people's flesh to make the feel better... I don't see you making a differentiation between their soul and their flesh. Just seems a little out of balance to me... maybe I read it wrong... would be a first time.

You sound like the ascetics, that renounce everything in this world as evil. God gave us the world and all that is in it to enjoy, he simply calls us to do so righteously. Yes, he condemned the evil of the world, but not the creation itself.

Some little girls love physical activities such as sports, others don't, God created variety in His world. Men want to create boxes and limit that variety, such is tunnel vision and produces child abuse, spiritual abuse and spiritual terrorism. "Do that or don't do this and you will burn in literal fire in hell forever." Jesus had serious rebuke for the Jewish religious leaders that, "...laid heavy burderns on folks..." His rebukes were almost exclusively for religious leaders, should be very instructive to all that preach and teach.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You sound like the ascetics, that renounce everything in this world as evil. God gave us the world and all that is in it to enjoy, he simply calls us to do so righteously. Yes, he condemned the evil of the world, but not the creation itself.

The world God created absolutely was wonderful and here to enjoy... the world we have now is not that same world... it is a cursed, sin filled, depraved, evil place... and we are not citizens of this world... we are ambassadors... not residents.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Our greatest desire, or want may be acceptance and/or love... but you said it was our greatest NEED. Words are important... and I think you were very loose there with that one. Our greatest NEED is RIGHTEOUSNESS. All the love in the world wont' do you any good if you aren't RIGHTEOUS before God having been washed in the blood of Jesus.

There will be people that Jesus, the church, and others loved.... heaped praise upon... encouraged... that will still be in Hell... there are children there in hell today of parents that gave them tons of chances, bailed them from jail, forgave them over and over, prayed for them, interceded for them, told them they could make it and encouraged them... that the Holy Ghost pulled on the heartstrings of... that God even wrapped Himself in flesh to give Himself for... that God Himself desired they would never perish and he offered them love.... but they still went to Hell.

No, this is some dangerous stuff your touting here. If you called it our greatest DESIRE... I'd have no issue with you... none at all. But you said it's our GREATEST NEED... and friend... I don't need love as much as I need RIGHTEOUSNESS. I need to be saved more than I need someone giving me kuddos and encouragement. My greatest need has more to do with eternity than my self esteem and self concept.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

The world God created absolutely was wonderful and here to enjoy... the world we have now is not that same world... it is a cursed, sin filled, depraved, evil place... and we are not citizens of this world... we are ambassadors... not residents.

Where are like buttons when you need them? I agree with all that you have said and more.

The only exception that I have is that God very plainly stated that there were people that He abhorred, hated, despised, and rejected because of their unrepentant sin. I believe that man can so strive against God that it causes Him to despise and hate that individual. This was true of Esau, various generations of Israelites, various Gentile nations around them, various peoples who dwelt in the land before them, as well as others.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Jay

Where are like buttons when you need them? I agree with all that you have said and more.

The only exception that I have is that God very plainly stated that there were people that He abhorred, hated, despised, and rejected because of their unrepentant sin. I believe that man can so strive against God that it causes Him to despise and hate that individual. This was true of Esau, various generations of Israelites, various Gentile nations around them, various peoples who dwelt in the land before them, as well as others.

Some people just will not obey God. They are determined to put self first. It's so easy I guess to misuse God's grace as an excuse to sin.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jay

Where are like buttons when you need them? I agree with all that you have said and more.

The only exception that I have is that God very plainly stated that there were people that He abhorred, hated, despised, and rejected because of their unrepentant sin. I believe that man can so strive against God that it causes Him to despise and hate that individual. This was true of Esau, various generations of Israelites, various Gentile nations around them, various peoples who dwelt in the land before them, as well as others.

People dont like to hear this. The "unconditional" love doctrine is tightly binding most people today. They cant grasp what you are saying here. God destroyed people and nations because he abhorred them.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Jay

Where are like buttons when you need them? I agree with all that you have said and more.

The only exception that I have is that God very plainly stated that there were people that He abhorred, hated, despised, and rejected because of their unrepentant sin. I believe that man can so strive against God that it causes Him to despise and hate that individual. This was true of Esau, various generations of Israelites, various Gentile nations around them, various peoples who dwelt in the land before them, as well as others.

Jay, I suggest you do an exegesis on those texts that say God hated or abhored someone... and you'll see that the King James interpretation doesn't do the words used in those texts justice. You'll see in some that it literally is saying they grieved God and broke his heart, and in others, that the text is actually saying He hated their life, the actions they carried out, what they did, who they had become.

God's unconditional love for their soul was there.

Let me just say, because frankly, I think Michael is confusing terms, and using words very lossely to mean different things... that unconditional love doesn't mean unconditional salvation, security, or grace. God's love is on such a different realm than hours, we could never even imagine it, and within that love is justice... and even wrath. Yes, God can even pour out his wrath on a society while yet loving them.