Faith Without Works...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

As I stated, some have come across as faith alone. Or, probably, I just misunderstood what they were saying as the wording wasn't plain enough.

When I'm thinking in a particular vein, you have to say things just right or I won't get it. LOL!

As I said NOBODY, NO ONE, Not ONE PERSON has ever said we can have faith and not obedience.

Let's get that settled here and now. Nobody here, nobody anywhere that I know of believes we can be saved or have faith and NOT be obedient.

The point is when it comes to being saved it's the content of your faith that God looks at, your faith in Christ's works...why? Because all OUR faith is as filthy rags.

So where do works and obedience come in? If you don't have works or obedience then you never really had real saving faith.

Nobody, NO ONE here is saying you can be saved and not have works or obedience, why? Because real saving faith will be evidenced by works/obedience

In other words if you don't have obedience/works you never did have saving faith and if you never did have saving faith God never saw the kind of faith that is required to be saved.

Those that believe in "faith alone" are NOT saying "You can do whatever you want"

They are saying that when it comes to God's reckoning, He is looking at our faith and not our works. If it was faith and works our works would condemn us

If by works then we are really messed up because "there is none righteous, no not one" and "Why do you call me good? There is none that is good except God". Those that say "faith alone" are saying that when it comes to God's criteria for being saved, He is looking at our faith not our works (thank you Jesus). But that by our faith, real genuine saving faith, we will have works. If not then you never had real saving faith to begin with and therefore.

Again you are putting the placement of the issue NOT in it's proper context

James is saying "faith without works is dead faith". He is qualifying what KIND Of faith is the right kind.

Galatians Paul is saying what God looks at when it comes to the issue of salvation, He looks at our faith. And what kind of faith is that according to James? It's the kind of faith that produces fruit

[Praxeas]

If we are saved by faith and works then Paul was clueless when he said "lest any man should boast"...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

PO, and others stress out and overly-emphasize to the point of drowning out the Gospel this element of works.





None of this overlooks or eclipses the reality of the Gospel. If we are in Christ, we are not subject to the wrath of God. He has pardoned us, not just in the present, but also the past and future. Our sins are not counted against us, he bears them all. He did this without any consideration of our works. Paul's emphasis on Justification by Faith was so impressed that Romans 6 is almost a blushing disclaimer similar to: ("now I'm not saying we should go on sinning"). That's how Grace should be preached. We should do more pausing before we start going into how much they need to obey -- and realize, a heart regenerated by Grace, is a heart that has no problem wanting to obey. We would do ourselves a great honor by allowing people to soak in Grace before jumping to further discipleship.

Yes, I agree. My mind, throughout this thread, has been thinking of some of the acquaintances I have known through the years that stand on faith alone as their salvation, all the while, doing whatever their flesh desires. That is not obedient faith. Some things just unreal. Not going into detail. But, it's faith, grace and mercy alone man! Don't judge me! LOL!

Now, I know we are human and not perfect in any way, but I would feel better knowing that I am doing wrong and struggling in the wrong than to say I am obedient while doing those things the Bible says will keep me from heaven. In my humanity and as much as possible, I want to be obedient.

"For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things." II Corinthians 2:9

It's not my fault some have presented me with a watered down version of faith.

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith." II Thessalonians 3:2

[missourimary]

Defining what "works" means might be beneficial. I've heard "works" defined in various sermons and conversations (on and off this board) as "standards", "Jewish laws and traditions", "deeds/actions"-which can be positive or negative depending on context, and "fruit". None of those would save us, and though some might show salvation, not all would. These might all work in various settings, but what say you?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As I said NOBODY, NO ONE, Not ONE PERSON has ever said we can have faith and not obedience.

Let's get that settled here and now. Nobody here, nobody anywhere that I know of believes we can be saved or have faith and NOT be obedient.

The point is when it comes to being saved it's the content of your faith that God looks at, your faith in Christ's works...why? Because all OUR faith is as filthy rags.

So where do works and obedience come in? If you don't have works or obedience then you never really had real saving faith.

Nobody, NO ONE here is saying you can be saved and not have works or obedience, why? Because real saving faith will be evidenced by works/obedience

In other words if you don't have obedience/works you never did have saving faith and if you never did have saving faith God never saw the kind of faith that is required to be saved.

Those that believe in "faith alone" are NOT saying "You can do whatever you want"

They are saying that when it comes to God's reckoning, He is looking at our faith and not our works. If it was faith and works our works would condemn us

If by works then we are really messed up because "there is none righteous, no not one" and "Why do you call me good? There is none that is good except God". Those that say "faith alone" are saying that when it comes to God's criteria for being saved, He is looking at our faith not our works (thank you Jesus). But that by our faith, real genuine saving faith, we will have works. If not then you never had real saving faith to begin with and therefore.

Again you are putting the placement of the issue NOT in it's proper context

James is saying "faith without works is dead faith". He is qualifying what KIND Of faith is the right kind.

Galatians Paul is saying what God looks at when it comes to the issue of salvation, He looks at our faith. And what kind of faith is that according to James? It's the kind of faith that produces fruit

Yes, Prax, I get that. My last post explains a little more. I wasn't necessarily saying people on this thread. I should have been more plain on that.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I agree. My mind, throughout this thread, has been thinking of some of the acquaintances I have known through the years that stand on faith alone as their salvation, all the while, doing whatever their flesh desires. That is not obedient faith. Some things just unreal. Not going into detail. But, it's faith, grace and mercy alone man! Don't judge me! LOL!

Now, I know we are human and not perfect in any way, but I would feel better knowing that I am doing wrong and struggling in the wrong than to say I am obedient while doing those things the Bible says will keep me from heaven. In my humanity and as much as possible, I want to be obedient.

"For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things." II Corinthians 2:9

It's not my fault some have presented me with a watered down version of faith.

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith." II Thessalonians 3:2

Sounds like some people that really need discipleship!

Many use Jesus as a check-the-box for their spirituality-o-meter. There are those who are "passive Christians" in both legalistic and licentious churches. The legalistic use their obedience to demand grace, or to feel secure in God's love, instead of trusting Him. The licentiousness ignore God's grace, are estranged to it, and worship themselves as their own saviors, using the Cross as an amulet only.

It also all depends on what it is you are objecting to. Are these folks that are having issues with sleeping around? Porn addicts? Lying? Cheating? Stealing from their brothers? Slandering? Being hateful?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Sounds like some people that really need discipleship!

Yes, and they are people not affiliated with my church or org..

Many use Jesus as a check-the-box for their spirituality-o-meter. There are those who are "passive Christians" in both legalistic and licentious churches. The legalistic use their obedience to demand grace, or to feel secure in God's love, instead of trusting Him. The licentiousness ignore God's grace, are estranged to it, and worship themselves as their own saviors, using the Cross as an amulet only.

It also all depends on what it is you are objecting to. Are these folks that are having issues with sleeping around? Porn addicts? Lying? Cheating? Stealing from their brothers? Slandering? Being hateful?

Yes.

I have to log out. My mother wants me to review a movie and get back with her on it. "Gifted Hands" (PG)

[*AQuietPlace*]

(I've been sitting here singing away.....

"Faith without works is like a song you can't sing - it's about as useless as a screen door on a submarine..."

saw this thread title again, and realized why that song had suddenly gotten stuck in my head. )

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

(I've been sitting here singing away.....

"Faith without works is like a song you can't sing - it's about as useless as a screen door on a submarine..."

saw this thread title again, and realized why that song had suddenly gotten stuck in my head. )

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Don't even put it out there. AWFUL!

[missourimary]

Thanks, AQP, now it's stuck in my head too!!

faith without works is dead, and works without love is empty (1 Cor 13)...