Gill on the geneology
being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph; who had espoused Mary before she was with child of the Holy Ghost, and afterwards took her to wife, and brought up her son; so that it was not known but that he was the son of Joseph. Whether or no the Jewish notion of the Messiah, the son of Joseph (y) may not take its rise from hence, may be considered: however, Joseph might very rightly be called, as he was supposed to be, the father of Jesus, by a rule which obtains with the Jews (z) that he
"that brings up, and not he that begets, is called the father,''
or parent; of which they give various instances (a) in Joseph, in Michal, and in Pharaoh's daughter.
Which was the son of Eli; meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli; for he was the son of Jacob, according to Mat_1:16, but Jesus was the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom they seem to design the mother of our Lord: for they tell (b) us of one,
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
That's not what I asked. Mary's ancestry. Her parents and their parents, etc. You said she was of the seed of David. Where does it say that?
Timbo,
Jesus is either of the seed of David or he is not.
Babies require a Father and a mother.
Messiah's father was God
Messiah's mother was Mary.
The only earthly lineage that applies to Messiah is by his mother.
The only way the seed of David can be attributed to Messiah is by Joseph.
Thus, it may be incombentent upon the student to consider, does the betrothed condition of Mary to Joseph unite him with lineage (seed) of David.
When the good 'ol instigating scribes were hanging around Jesus, he[Jesus] fired out the question...."Concerning the Christ, WHOSE SON IS HE?". They jumped the shark, responding....DAVID's!
Jesus stuck a sock in their mouth by saying....How can David, speaking in the Spirit, call him Lord (adoni) if he [messiah] came before him [David]....in otherwords, he 'aint' from the progression of the loins of David, else David would not have called him Lord. [Read Ps 110:1 for David's prophetic utterance concering messiah and Jahovah]
If that is the case, how can scripture testify in truth that Messiah is the seed of David....except by reconciling the Mary factor.
Sorry if this needs to be added to the 1,000,000 other things that don't work for you.
tbpew.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
Timbo,
Jesus is either of the seed of David or he is not.
So far, so good.
Quote:
Babies require a Father and a mother.
Messiah's father was God
Messiah's mother was Mary.
The only earthly lineage that applies to Messiah is by his mother.
So far, so good.
Quote:
The only way the seed of David can be attributed to Messiah is by Joseph.
Aaaaand, ya lost me.
Quote:
Thus, it may be incombentent upon the student to consider, does the betrothed condition of Mary to Joseph unite him with lineage (seed) of David.
I don't see how.
Quote:
When the good 'ol instigating scribes were hanging around Jesus, he[Jesus] fired out the question...."Concerning the Christ, WHOSE SON IS HE?". They jumped the shark, responding....DAVID's!
Jesus stuck a sock in their mouth by saying....How can David, speaking in the Spirit, call him Lord (adoni) if he [messiah] came before him [David]....in otherwords, he 'aint' from the progression of the loins of David, else David would not have called him Lord. [Read Ps 110:1 for David's prophetic utterance concering messiah and Jahovah]
OK, so Jesus isn't of the line of David. Said so Himself. Mmmmkay.
Quote:
If that is the case, how can scripture testify in truth that Messiah is the seed of David....except by reconciling the Mary factor.
Reconciling the Mar factor. Got it. But why? We just learned that Jesus wasn't of David, said so Himself, end of story? (I'm guessing not! )
Quote:
Sorry if this needs to be added to the 1,000,000 other things that don't work for you.
tbpew.
Nah. It's not even close to that many (so far)!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
timmer,
Christology is difficult because no where else in creation do we have a human creature WITHOUT a human father.
That's why, THE CHRIST's question, to the informed players, was so vexing concerning the total set of prophetic witnesses available at the time of Messiah revealed on earth ---Concerning Messiah....whose SON is he?
A child was born without having a father who was from below, who was of the earth, earthy....but he had a father....and that was the subject of Jesus' challenge question to the scribes/scriptural academians.
But the child who was born OF A WOMAN, this son who was given, is our kinsman redeemer....FULLY MAN. The seed that fertilized the egg in Mary's womb was GOD speaking --his WORD. That which was formed and subsequently born was the WORD of God --made Flesh, dwelled among us resulting from God's word going forth from God and finding its union with the OVUM of his handmadien Mary.
So, one way or another, we need to consider if:
1. Mary extends from the seed of David (if it can be known)
2. Does a man's wife become indestinguishable from the lineage of her husband
For the purpose of this discussion, as of the time I constructed this post, I am inclined toward the latter.
But the former training of our minds and the traditional normative thinking are formidable obstacles to considering the work of Spirit within the visible realm.
Messiah is Son of David according to the flesh, but not according to his paternal seed.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
In Luke chapter 1 the angel Gabriel appears to Mary.
It says in verse 27 that she was espoused to Joseph who was of the house of David. It is assumed that the genealogy of Luke 3:23 is Mary's although her name is not mentioned. Joseph is mentioned there but the words "son of" are italicized in our KJV meaning they are not in the original text. It could also mean that Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, was the son-in-law of Heli. But notice something the angel says to Mary in verse 32 about Jesus sitting on the throne of his father David. Then Mary questions how that could be because she was a virgin. She said that she had not known a man. She did not say that she had not known a man who was a descendant of David. I take that to mean that she realized her child would be a son of David through her and not necessarily through a man who was of David's lineage.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
In Luke chapter 1 the angel Gabriel appears to Mary.
It says in verse 27 that she was espoused to Joseph who was of the house of David. It is assumed that the genealogy of Luke 3:23 is Mary's although her name is not mentioned. Joseph is mentioned there but the words "son of" are italicized in our KJV meaning they are not in the original text. It could also mean that Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, was the son-in-law of Heli. But notice something the angel says to Mary in verse 32 about Jesus sitting on the throne of his father David. Then Mary questions how that could be because she was a virgin. She said that she had not known a man. She did not say that she had not known a man who was a descendant of David. I take that to mean that she realized her child would be a son of David through her and not necessarily through a man who was of David's lineage.
In Luke chapter 1 the angel Gabriel appears to Mary.
It says in verse 27 that she was espoused to Joseph who was of the house of David. It is assumed that the genealogy of Luke 3:23 is Mary's although her name is not mentioned. Joseph is mentioned there but the words "son of" are italicized in our KJV meaning they are not in the original text. It could also mean that Joseph, the legal father of Jesus, was the son-in-law of Heli. But notice something the angel says to Mary in verse 32 about Jesus sitting on the throne of his father David. Then Mary questions how that could be because she was a virgin. She said that she had not known a man. She did not say that she had not known a man who was a descendant of David. I take that to mean that she realized her child would be a son of David through her and not necessarily through a man who was of David's lineage.
I don't have a KJV handy, but blueletterbible.com has it like this:
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,
Looks like it's "the son" that's added, not "son of". Without them, we have:
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was of Heli,
Which was [the son] of Matthat, which was of Levi, which was of Melchi, which was of Janna, which was of Joseph,
. . .
Not sure it's reasonable to assume "son-in-law of" for Joseph, but "son of" for everyone else. Is there a translation that has it as "son-in-law of Heli"?
The point about the angel/Mary conversation is somewhat more plausible.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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