Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Daniel If I remember right no young lady in the Bible was ever FORCED to marry an older man. At least none that were in accord with God.
These men are going against the laws of this country by forcing marriages and sex onto young girls. I think Christians in this country have a right to be angered by what went on. I personally think America has been far to relaxed in dealing with this group. Personally I believe these men to be perverted pedophiles. They use their religion to practice it. Maybe Israel did marry their children young but that was a whole differnt place and time. Some countries may still practice it but we do not practice it here and since it is not against any God given laws then they should follow the law. I am afraid I would probably want to kill any man or woman that forced themselves onto my child. Any that comes asking me to marry my child to them is going to get similar treatment.

notice I didn't say I would but I certainly would want to.

I agree, and I agree!

[Cindy]

Sorry if my responses seem a little heated but I am so outraged that anyone would try to defend what these people were doing to children. No matter how most people look at this, the children are forever scarred inside unless God heals them. Even if it is all they have known, somewhere inside them they know something is not right.

[MissBrattified]

There is a difference between freedom to practice religious convictions, and the freedom to do whatever you prefer to do, simply because your religion allows for it. That's like saying that if your religion allows you to go to amusement parks, and the state outlaws Six Flags that you are being persecuted because of your religion. The difference is that going to an amusement park is not a necessary part of your religious experience, just an allowance or preference. Therefore for the state to remove that is to remove a privilege, not a right.

These men aren't required to marry underage girls in order to get into heaven. Not even according to their own teachings. Therefore, the state prosecuting them for breaking the law on this point is not persecution because of their religion. It's the equivalent of taking away Six Flags.

BUT, even if it WAS part of their religion--let's say they truly believed they had to have sex with 12 year old girls to get through the pearly gates--I wouldn't care one iota. Sorry. NO one should be allowed to abuse children, even if they do slap a label on it that says, "My Religious Freedom."

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by Rico

You make some valid points, but there is absolutely NO WAY I would let my daughter marry at 13. She's twelve now and has a good future ahead of her, once she gets through high school and college. The simple truth is that many things have changed for women since the Bible was written, and I don't think it would be fair to try to apply those practices today.

Agreed, I wouldn't allow any of my daughters to marry at that young age either. But you also must understand that the idea that adulthood doesn't come until your 18 or 21 is a new idea in retrospect of the entire human history. The system that we have today is not neccassarily better than past systems. I'm sure you'd agrre with me that most of our current sociatal taboos are a good thing, but I'm also sure even some of them don't really make any sense to you but you live by them just because that's the way things are.

I can see how important parental involvement in marriage decisions is, and plan on being actively involved in my children's choices for a spouse. However, the choice will be theirs to make, not mine. If I feel one of them is making a mistake I have every intention of getting right in their way, and I am very good at getting in their way if they are making a mistake.

Good. My parents laid low and really didn't give me any advice or anything. I probably wouldn't have listened anyway unless they would have introduced me to someone better. Noone knew me better than my parents, they know my faults and can tell that to a potential wife's parents and the parents can decide if that paticular woman and myself would have been a good fit better than we could of ourselves because as you know, when dating you always put on your best face and keep your faults hidden. That didn't happen, and it's water under the bridge, but I hope you see my point in why all parents should be very involved with their childrens marriage choices.

Bottom line is that women have gained a lot of ground since Bible days. Also, for every successful arranged marriage I am sure there is at least one where the people involved never loved each other, never bonded, and never got to experience that bond that married people share.

Yes women have gained alot, and that is a good thing, very good. But I wouldn't call biblical customs bad though. That's what they had, and this is what we have. Both are human, both are flawed, both are good according to their customs and times.

Probably so, yet the divorce rate in America is currently around 50%, what we are doing now is not working. Whether arranged marriages would work better or not I don't know, but I do know what is failing currently.

Lastly, we are not talking about young girls marrying young boys. We are talking about men old enough to be a young girl's grandfather! That's wrong, I don't care who you are! It infuriates me to think of a man in his 50s marrying a girl of 13! It's child molestation, plain and simple! There's more to being unequally yoked than just marriages between saved and unsaved people.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's always been my understanding that Joseph was probably in his forties and Mary was in her early teens. I'm sure that was customary at that time, probably more that 20 something ladies marrying 60 something men today. Personally, I wouldn't permit it with my daughters, but I'm not talking about how I feel about it, but what does God clearly say about it. That's the issue.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

Am I right in understanding that your religious practices can't go against the law of the land?

Like Newman said, prosecute the crimes, ie, statutory rape and polygamy, but why remove the children from the mothers that are caring for them?

[Rico]

Dan R., I have never read anything in the Bible that would indicate Joseph's age.

[Kae]

Originally Posted by DanielR

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

Polygamy wasn't something God wanted man did that himself. According to Deut 17:14-17 A king wasn't to multiply wives to himself. The example you give is a women having more than one husband not a man having more than one wife. If the first husband was dead it wouldn't be polygamy anyway. If you look at Tamar her husband died and she was given his brother who wasn't married. She was then promised another brother after that one had died.

With Samson you need to take another look. He never asked his parents for Delilah. The name of his wife was never given. Her and her father ended up burned to death. He went to Delilah on his own.

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Daniel If I remember right no young lady in the Bible was ever FORCED to marry an older man. At least none that were in accord with God.
These men are going against the laws of this country by forcing marriages and sex onto young girls. I think Christians in this country have a right to be angered by what went on. I personally think America has been far to relaxed in dealing with this group. Personally I believe these men to be perverted pedophiles. They use their religion to practice it. Maybe Israel did marry their children young but that was a whole differnt place and time. Some countries may still practice it but we do not practice it here and since it is not against any God given laws then they should follow the law. I am afraid I would probably want to kill any man or woman that forced themselves onto my child. Any that comes asking me to marry my child to them is going to get similar treatment.

notice I didn't say I would but I certainly would want to.

You seem to get the idea that I'm actually supporting this cult and their practices. But that's not the case. I just don't understand the outcry about the giving of young ladies to marriage (though I personally wouldn't permit my own daughters to marry until they are at least very late teens) since it is common practice throughout human history and even right here in America up into the late 19th century. I said nothing about forced marriages or forsed sexual intercourse. Arranged marriages and forced marriages are two different things, but I'm not sure that our government knows the difference. Personally I don't have enough information about what was actually going on in their, for the simple reason that I don't believe everything that I hear when it comes to government involvement in anything, muchless a religous practice.

The fact that something is outlawed by man, doesn't mean it's wrong to God. The fact that somethings have no law written about them, doesn't mean it's right to God. I'm not challenging the laws, nor do I think they should change. What I'm, challenging is our reaction to the incident when 1)We don't have the facts (don't fool yourself, no matter how much you think you know, most of the information that you hear is speculation and not facts of the case) 2)Human and Biblical history is in opposition to our outcry of the facts that we honestly do know.

As far as someone forcing themselves on your child, I agree with you, although I don't think that I personally would be able to stop at the "want to". There are few things that angers me, but my children in danger is one of them.

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by Kae

Polygamy wasn't something God wanted man did that himself. According to Deut 17:14-17 A king wasn't to multiply wives to himself. The example you give is a women having more than one husband not a man having more than one wife. If the first husband was dead it wouldn't be polygamy anyway. If you look at Tamar her husband died and she was given his brother who wasn't married. She was then promised another brother after that one had died.

With Samson you need to take another look. He never asked his parents for Delilah. The name of his wife was never given. Her and her father ended up burned to death. He went to Delilah on his own.

It would be if a married man married his dead brothers wife. (which in reality would have been the case in practice many times over in that society) As far as Sampson, it has been awhile since I had spent any time in Judges so I'll conceede that point.

[Cindy]

Whatever our views on this situation, Mr. Jeff's was convicted in Utah of sex crimes.