No Limits Conference Speakers?

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Nobody has been "kicked out" of NW's church for a relatively minor offence. He may have faults, but a lack of longsuffering toward those seeking God is not one of them.

I stand corrected, "kicked out" is probably not the most accurate description of what happened. She was shamed and shunned out. She said nobody would talk to her and everybody avoided her and things were said to her by leadership to make her feel she was unsaved and displeasing to God. I don't want to out her by telling you what her horrible crime was, but believe me it's minor. No sex or drugs involved, btw.

Incidentally, the last time I talked w/her she invited me to a birthday party for a good friend of hers. The party was being held at a popular gay nightclub and her friend was a former UPC evangelist who backslid and is extremely bitter about the treatment he received by what he thought were his UPC friends at a Sacramento church when he revealed his weakness and asked for help. She stopped him from committing suicide because he was so depressed. He is now openly gay and she had to convince him to meet me once he found out I was a minister. His fear and anger toward me was palpable.

[Sweet Pea]

Just a few comments before I go back to my cave for a while....

APOMO - unfortunately, I will not be able to meet you tonight. I hope that you will still come. I promise NH won't "call you out" - he is in Israel right now. He took a tour group there. I have enjoyed our interaction the past few days. I have come to understand more clearly where you are coming from - here again is proof that you can hear all types of rumors about things and people - but until you hear it from the person themselves, probably a lot of what you are hearing is either untrue or exaggerated. I regret you felt that you needed to leave the UPC. I am in no way saying that I believe that UPC is the only way to get to heaven - but I do know your background and heritage in the UPC. I know it must have been hard to walk away. I also regret that you have been unable to find a church (and/or organization) that you feel that you can align yourself with that teaches and believes the doctrine of oneness of the Godhead, baptism in Jesus Name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

I pray God will bless your family and you will instill in your children the truth regarding salvation. Standards are not the issue - the Word of God is. I also pray that all goes well with your wife's childbirth and that you have a healthy baby. She is a sweet lady!

I hope I have not offended you by anything I have said - do you still "love" me?"

[Sweet Pea]

Now I would like to address some other things that have been mentioned regarding NH:

KarenJo - I know that you were in the youth group - however, I wish that people would quit perpetuating the rumor that the cause of NH illness is because of his fasting and the way that he broke that fast when a teenager. Granted, his actions then did exacerbate the illness - but it was not the CAUSE of his illness. This explanation was from the man himself several years ago.

Sounworthy - you made it sound as if he is nigh unto death. He has a chronic problem that many American suffer with - his recent illness when he missed church several services had nothing to do with his chronic condition - he had the flu that has been going around. Several of his children had it also. Yes, that chronic condition has brought him close to the door in death in years past - however, God is continuing to touch him and give him strength for what he has been called to do.

NH recently was on a 31 day fast - without any more adverse effects to his body than anyone else would have suffered. My husband and I have often discussed NH's situation and have wondered if he would be where he is spritually if he had not battled this condition all these years. He has learned to depend solely upon God and through this has probably reached a dimension in God that most of us only dream about. Granted, he is not perfect - who among us is - but I truly believe that God is using him in "such a time as this!"

Someone made a comment regarding MY's message the other night and mentioned their homes. NH and his wife did have a beautiful large home. A home that he did not build with money received from the church. He had made some wise real estate investments with his father-in-law. He owned the home, pretty much free and clear - They sold that home and gave most of the profit to the church - primarily to missions. Now they are living in a double-wide manufactured home (with five children) - but God is getting ready to bless them for that sacrifice. I truly believe it!
__________________

[Barb]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I guess NH is a compassionate and nice guy and has a hunger for the Lord. That's all good. He certainly has toned down the whole NT Elijah thing thing he had going there when he was younger. I do appreciate his more measured and toned down approach to communicating. And like I said, I thought the message I heard earlier today was good and helpful and inspirational.

But Karen brings up a good point and it's one that concerns me about him and people that believe many of the things he believes. It's not so much how he says stuff that is the issue as much as what he says at times that causes problems for people. Words mean something and even if you say something with compassion and gentleness it can still be harmful if it's not true and it damages peoples relationship with God. The real problem is some of the wrong theology that he believes. Case in point, what Karen said about his fasting. He believed wrong things about fasting and I remember he would put alot of pressure on people to be like him in that regard and he was held up as the paragon of spirituality by alot of people and wannabe prophets. But he was wrong and even though his intentions were pure he hurt himself, his family, and I would say his church because of something he believed that was wrong.

I remember once he said this from the pulpit, "I just cannot see how it is possible that anyone who owns a television is going to heaven." He said it very compassionately, emotion in his voice, kindly, gently, etc... he wasn't screaming and spitting and all that. It was very sweet. But very deadly in that it is dead wrong and had the very real potential to distort people's understanding of God and holiness (which is an attribute of God) and put a load of false guilt and condemnation on people that happen to own televisions and took his word as truth. Words matter because they mean something. Even if you're compassionate and kind in how you say it the end result can be a damaged person who lives under false guilt due to bad theology. When you teach bad theology you're exchanging the truth for something else and that's never a good thing. True, we can survive these sorts of theological toxins in our souls and any one of them won't kill you. But it's the accumulation of many small untruths that can have a deliterious effect on people and they end up dying a spiritual death of a thousand spiritual cuts or they're walking around as spiritually walking wounded bleeding all over the place and their spiritual growth is severely hampered and stunted. It's as abusive and damaging as emotional and verbal abuse to children and spouses.

I remember another incident where JHaney taught one of my new converts classes. She told the ladies that pants were associated with prostitution and thus were an abomination to God. She was very "kind" in how she said it. But that didn't matte because words mean something. One of the new convert ladies got up and ran out of the room crying. I chased her to her car trying to console her and she refused to talk and never came back to church again no matter how hard I tried. In her mind she's a whore in the eyes of God.

That's the problem I have with NW's sermon and with some of the stuff I hear NH and others say. The untruth of what they say creates, over time, a seriously distorted picture of God and this in turn leads to alot of other bad stuff.

Case in point, the Lord put me in the same insurance office as the boss of a girl who used to attend NW's church. The things she was told and internalized devestated her and created basket case. She would literally shake with fear when we'd drive by NW's church. She lived in literal fear of God. She wanted to go to NW's church but had been kicked out for what I feel was a relatively minor offense. She didn't feel she could go to any other church because they didn't 'have the truth'. She felt, due to the bad teaching she'd been taught, that God had rejected her and sincerely felt that she was reprobate and beyond forgiveness.

It took me a long time to get through to her and she finally came to church w/me a couple of times. I could tell other stories but I'm sure alot of ya'll mad enough at me.

I do not know this incident to speak of whether what she related to you was fact or fiction.

All I can say with assurance is that people can convince themselves of anything. I have seen first hand where someone left a church and told all kinds of things to justify their own actions.

I'm not discounting this event, and it may have occurred exactly as she related it to you. However, disgruntled folks are not the most reliable sources for fact.

[Blsdbeyondmsure]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Now I would like to address some other things that have been mentioned regarding NH:

KarenJo - I know that you were in the youth group - however, I wish that people would quit perpetuating the rumor that the cause of NH illness is because of his fasting and the way that he broke that fast when a teenager. Granted, his actions then did exacerbate the illness - but it was not the CAUSE of his illness. This explanation was from the man himself several years ago.

Sounworthy - you made it sound as if he is nigh unto death. He has a chronic problem that many American suffer with - his recent illness when he missed church several services had nothing to do with his chronic condition - he had the flu that has been going around. Several of his children had it also. Yes, that chronic condition has brought him close to the door in death in years past - however, God is continuing to touch him and give him strength for what he has been called to do.

NH recently was on a 31 day fast - without any more adverse effects to his body than anyone else would have suffered. My husband and I have often discussed NH's situation and have wondered if he would be where he is spritually if he had not battled this condition all these years. He has learned to depend solely upon God and through this has probably reached a dimension in God that most of us only dream about. Granted, he is not perfect - who among us is - but I truly believe that God is using him in "such a time as this!"

Someone made a comment regarding MY's message the other night and mentioned their homes. NH and his wife did have a beautiful large home. A home that he did not build with money received from the church. He had made some wise real estate investments with his father-in-law. He owned the home, pretty much free and clear - They sold that home and gave most of the profit to the church - primarily to missions. Now they are living in a double-wide manufactured home (with five children) - but God is getting ready to bless them for that sacrifice. I truly believe it!
__________________

SweetPea,

I appreciate your comments about NH. Who isn't without their faults?

A couple more positive comments... NH ministered to me at a time in my life when I desperately needed something from God. He showed me how to go to deeper dimensions in my relationship with God.

He also won my sister-in-law to the Lord. She's an awesome person, great wife to my brother, wonderful mother to my niece & nephews, dedicated pastor's wife... and a close friend. I wouldn't have her in my life today if it weren't for NH.

Blsd

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Blsdbeyondmsure

SweetPea,

I appreciate your comments about NH. Who isn't without their faults?

A couple more positive comments... NH ministered to me at a time in my life when I desperately needed something from God. He showed me how to go to deeper dimensions in my relationship with God.

He also won my sister-in-law to the Lord. She's an awesome person, great wife to my brother, wonderful mother to my niece & nephews, dedicated pastor's wife... and a close friend. I wouldn't have her in my life today if it weren't for NH.

Blsd

It all just goes to show that everything is perspective...

Where others would find fault, someone else finds a blessing.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Just a few comments before I go back to my cave for a while....
[B]

I hope I have not offended you by anything I have said - do you still "love" me?"

Absolutely I still love you. I'm a big boy and take straight talk. I can dish it out and I can take it. I much prefer the truth over sweeping stuff under the rug.

I am curious about this statement, "I have come to understand more clearly where you are coming from - here again is proof that you can hear all types of rumors about things and people - but until you hear it from the person themselves, probably a lot of what you are hearing is either untrue or exaggerated." I'm not sure what you mean by that. I can be interpreted many ways. If you think that what I've said is rumor or exaggeration I beg to differ. These are just a couple of situations I encountered personally and there are MANY more. My opinions weren't formed in a vacuum and they certainly weren't formed overnight. The incident w/JH happened about two weeks after I came on staff and you know I stayed on for four years. I'll tell you that the last three were hell for me as I saw more and more stuff I couldn't reconcile with righteousness. Or you could be making a general statement about rumors etc... Or do you mean that you've heard rumors and exaggerations about me? From the context I think you're talking about the latter but can't tell for sure. If so I am certainly curious what has been said about me. And a little surprised since I figured nobody gave a rip whether I came or went as I never heard boo from anybody except Sis. Ikerd right before she died.

" I know it must have been hard to walk away. I also regret that you have been unable to find a church (and/or organization) that you feel that you can align yourself with" ???? Who says I haven't. I'm very happy where I am now. You're right, leaving the UPC was the absolute most difficult decision I've ever made. And my relationships with many people have suffered because of it, including family. But it's a decision I've not regretted even for one minute. And thankfully the relationships with my family have been restored. Others aren't so fortunate.

FYI: My oldest son has been baptized in Jesus' name and is filled with the Holy Ghost. I had the honor of baptizing him myself two years ago. As I type this he is leaning against me on the couch watching a documentary on the History Channel about ancient Jerusalem and Jewish history. More importantly though he is growing in Christ and the fruit of the Spirit are very evident in his life. I'm very proud of him. I'm confident that my other two sons will be the same once they reach the age where they can make these sorts of moral/spiritual choices. My biggest prayer is that they not have to deal with the terribly negative aspects of religion as I have and you can understand why I jealously protect them from it.

BTW: I was just kidding about NH 'calling me out'. I know he'd never do that. I guess I won't go tonight if you're not going to be there. Maybe next week.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Barb

I'm not discounting this event, and it may have occurred exactly as she related it to you. However, disgruntled folks are not the most reliable sources for fact.

But you are discounting the event by implying that she's "disgruntled" and somehow that explains everything and lets her abusers off the hook. I have talked w/people from that church and they confirmed the facts of what happened.

Am I the only one that has noticed how the reactions to my posts have been to find ways to blame me and the people that got hurt instead of holding the people accountable who did and continue to do these things?

Why is it that little people get in all sorts of trouble for doing minor things wrong but the 'important' people are allowed to get away with major things without accountability? It reminds me of the scripture about priests that piled huge loads on people (like overloaded donkies) but they themselves refuse to carry the same moral load.

Her story is true. What do we do with it? Ignore it?

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Blsdbeyondmsure

SweetPea,

I appreciate your comments about NH. Who isn't without their faults?

A couple more positive comments... NH ministered to me at a time in my life when I desperately needed something from God. He showed me how to go to deeper dimensions in my relationship with God.

He also won my sister-in-law to the Lord. She's an awesome person, great wife to my brother, wonderful mother to my niece & nephews, dedicated pastor's wife... and a close friend. I wouldn't have her in my life today if it weren't for NH.

Blsd

Please don't misunderstand. I like NH. Yeah he has his faults and I overlook most of them. I have faults and my wife and my friends overlooks them as well, thankfully. NH has a great ministry and he's won many people to the Lord. I certainly wouldn't want to discount that.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Someone made a comment regarding MY's message the other night and mentioned their homes. NH and his wife did have a beautiful large home. A home that he did not build with money received from the church. He had made some wise real estate investments with his father-in-law. He owned the home, pretty much free and clear - They sold that home and gave most of the profit to the church - primarily to missions. Now they are living in a double-wide manufactured home (with five children) - but God is getting ready to bless them for that sacrifice. I truly believe it!
__________________

Now THAT'S impressive!! Kudos to NH. Seriously.

(I only believe that his health problems started w/his fasting because that's what members of his family told me. They must have been wrong. I would have asked him myself but he smelled like garlic so much of the time that it made me want to throw up. I asked him to leave my office more than once because of it. )