And YOU have NOT told us what moderation is and what would be in violation of the passage or is it impossible to violate the passage??????
Right...you want me to define moderation for you so you can define costly for me? Will I go to hell based on YOUR definition of costly? Or will YOU go to hell based on MY definition of costly? Or maybe an Ethiopean's definition of costly? See how the straining at a gnat really gets absurd? You set arbitrary, non bible based standards for what is costly or not. Does the bible give like a percentage or a dollar range to know what is costly and what is not? Who decides that? See once again that should be enough logic for anyone to realize that Paul and Peter are NOT forbidding ornaments, even cheap plastic ones or saying you should buy clothes at Walmart only and never ever at Macy's because it costs too much.
That alone should make everyone realize that this verse can't be used to force a subjective standard on people and make it a heaven or hell issue.
You want to know what moderation is? It's in between. It's not overboard. It's not something so costly that you get arrogant about it, go into dept, feel you are more important because you can afford it. Hows that? Same thing can be applied to houses and cars and dress shoes.
Moderation avoids excess. Excess in drinking wine results in drunkeness
Eph 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit,
apply this verse literally to your daily life in and outside the house and see how you fair :-)
1Pe 3:3 Of whom let not be the adorning of garments, or outward braiding of hair and wearing of gold, or of putting on clothing,
Don't wear clothing
Paul
1Ti 2:9 In the same way also, I desire that women adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and sensibleness, not adorned with braiding, or gold, or pearls, or costly clothing,
First of all the adorning here refers to modest clothing. The second "adorned" is NOT even in the greek text. Translators added it
Second, if adorn here refers to ornaments then Paul is saying you CAN wear jewerly just as long as it is not costly...who decides cost again?
I'm not against jewelry nor a well kept hairstyle nor decent clothing. These two apostles are speaking the word of God to woman and laying down a principle. I personally would be convicted if I placed too much emphasis on what I looked like on the outside and not enough on what state my heart was in.
Who decides cost? Walmart vs Penney's vs Designer brands? The person buying and wearing the clothes. Who judges the intents of the heart? God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Lu 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also
I'm not against jewelry nor a well kept hairstyle nor decent clothing. These two apostles are speaking the word of God to woman and laying down a principle. I personally would be convicted if I placed too much emphasis on what I looked like on the outside and not enough on what state my heart was in.
Who decides cost? Walmart vs Penney's vs Designer brands? The person buying and wearing the clothes. Who judges the intents of the heart? God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Lu 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also
See some very important things here. You said "I personally would be convicted"..that's you moderating youself
And
"placed TOO MUCH emphasis on" that agrees with what I have said. Paul is addressing attitudes not outward items. Peter and Paul together show that it's what is inward that is the point here and pride in the outward will hurt you
TOO MUCH is excess. Just right is not. I agree with what you said but what you said in no way supports the notion that Peter and Paul are outlawing certain items that ........ someone to hell.
So if there is a principle here, is the principle "all ornaments ........ you to hell and so does expensive clothing" or is it "don't pride yourself in the outward, but rather focus on the inward person"
And maybe, just maybe if we did that we can all moderate how we look on the outward rather than just legislating it FOR them. There are I am sure a lot of Pentecostals that look the part but inwardly are missing the mark
Right...you want me to define moderation for you so you can define costly for me? Will I go to hell based on YOUR definition of costly? Or will YOU go to hell based on MY definition of costly? Or maybe an Ethiopean's definition of costly? See how the straining at a gnat really gets absurd? You set arbitrary, non bible based standards for what is costly or not. Does the bible give like a percentage or a dollar range to know what is costly and what is not? Who decides that? See once again that should be enough logic for anyone to realize that Paul and Peter are NOT forbidding ornaments, even cheap plastic ones or saying you should buy clothes at Walmart only and never ever at Macy's because it costs too much.
That alone should make everyone realize that this verse can't be used to force a subjective standard on people and make it a heaven or hell issue.
You want to know what moderation is? It's in between. It's not overboard. It's not something so costly that you get arrogant about it, go into dept, feel you are more important because you can afford it. Hows that? Same thing can be applied to houses and cars and dress shoes.
Moderation avoids excess. Excess in drinking wine results in drunkeness
Eph 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit,
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
I'm not against jewelry nor a well kept hairstyle nor decent clothing. These two apostles are speaking the word of God to woman and laying down a principle. I personally would be convicted if I placed too much emphasis on what I looked like on the outside and not enough on what state my heart was in.
Who decides cost? Walmart vs Penney's vs Designer brands? The person buying and wearing the clothes. Who judges the intents of the heart? God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Lu 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also
Blessed by the sound exegesis both displayed in these posts ....
You two should write a book.
See some very important things here. You said "I personally would be convicted"..that's you moderating youself
And
"placed TOO MUCH emphasis on" that agrees with what I have said. Paul is addressing attitudes not outward items. Peter and Paul together show that it's what is inward that is the point here and pride in the outward will hurt you
TOO MUCH is excess. Just right is not. I agree with what you said but what you said in no way supports the notion that Peter and Paul are outlawing certain items that ........ someone to hell.
So if there is a principle here, is the principle "all ornaments ........ you to hell and so does expensive clothing" or is it "don't pride yourself in the outward, but rather focus on the inward person"
And maybe, just maybe if we did that we can all moderate how we look on the outward rather than just legislating it FOR them. There are I am sure a lot of Pentecostals that look the part but inwardly are missing the mark
Paul did say "adorn" and I think jewelry would qualify as adornment. It's a decoration, as is costly array, and an extravagant hairstyle. All of these can become sources of pride. And Peter seems to agree when he stressed a meek and quiet spirit. I would say two apostles are laying down a priciple for godliness concerning women.
Adornment isn't wrong. I understand about costly array and such, but what about cheap stuff? It's just as preached against, so being costly isn't the problem.
As for pride, I know more long-haired women with that problem than women who wear jewelry.....LOL!
Ever been to General Conference? It's nothing more than a fashion show! But hey, they are 'holiness' folks, so no sin there!
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