The Initial Physical Evidence

[Sam]

Someone has described some of the different terms like this

Filled is a quantitative term to indicate the person has received as much Holy Spirit as it can contain

baptism means that the recipient has been immersed, saturated, overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit

gift refers to the nature of the transaction, it is a gift, not a reward

receive refers to making room for or formally accepting

Originally Posted by mizpeh

yes, to both of your questions. I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son. Then they quote verses from 1John.

I'm a trinitarian and I don't believe in the doctrine of an eternal Son. The Bible makes it clear that the Son was begotten. That, in itself, necessitates a beginning. Thus, "eternally begotten" in the corrupted (Roman Catholic and Protestant) version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is an oxymoron. Jesus' divinity is eternal because it is homoousion - the same substance - with the Father; but His status as God's "only begotten Son" (John 3:16) is not. For that matter, God's fatherhood (His status as the Father) is not eternal because He was not a father until He fathered (whether figuratively as with the angels or the creation of humans, whether literally as in the begetting of Jesus or whether by adoption as in the adoption of the Christian).

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sam

Someone has described some of the different terms like this

Filled is a quantitative term to indicate the person has received as much Holy Spirit as it can contain

baptism means that the recipient has been immersed, saturated, overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit

gift refers to the nature of the transaction, it is a gift, not a reward

receive refers to making room for or formally accepting

This is very good Sam.

[freeatlast]

where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"

The baptism of the Holy Ghost fullfilled Joels prophecy in 2:28 that God will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh.

God's spirit was poured out on pentecost, the earth and all humanity is what was batized, making God's indwelling spirit avaiable to all who would, as Peter proclaimed in Act's 2:21, call upon the name of the Lord.

Initial evidence is not in the bible.. speaking in tongues is.

On two ocassions it was an evidence to the UNBELIEVING Jews who did not think anybody but them could be saved.

Because we have seen these two inagural events in church history with the Samaritans and the Gentiles being addded to the church and them speaking in tongues, it is a far stretch to say that ALL that recieve the spirit will always speak in tongues.

It's a doctrine built on many false assumptions.

Now, I thank God that I speak in tongues, but i thank God even more that I know that my salvation is in no way dependant on my speaking in tongues.

Originally Posted by freeatlast

where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"

The baptism of the Holy Ghost fullfilled Joels prophecy in 2:28 that God will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh.

God's spirit was poured out on pentecost, the earth and all humanity is what was batized, making God's indwelling spirit avaiable to all who would, as Peter proclaimed in Act's 2:21, call upon the name of the Lord.

Initial evidence is not in the bible.. speaking in tongues is.

On two ocassions it was an evidence to the UNBELIEVING Jews who did not think anybody but them could be saved.

Because we have seen these two inagural events in church history with the Samaritans and the Gentiles being addded to the church and them speaking in tongues, it is a far stretch to say that ALL that recieve the spirit will always speak in tongues.

It's a doctrine built on many false assumptions.

Now, I thank God that I speak in tongues, but i thank God even more that I know that my salvation is in no way dependant on my speaking in tongues.

Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm.

Assumptions, yes. Not necessarily false assumptions, though.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Chan

Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm.

Assumptions, yes. Not necessarily false assumptions, though.

When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Just some thoughts:

Conception means a seed has been planted and under the proper

or right conditions, in time there will be a birth. The mother should

be careful to nurture this seed by taking proper care of herself and

this "burden" that is growing inside her. In the fulness of time there

will be "labour pains" and as this progresses, travail (groanings) and

perhaps weeping. About the time the mother feels she cannot bear

anymore pain, suddenly there is a bursting forth of water and blood,

and sweet deliverance. What a refreshing!! But wait, the mother waits!!

My baby is out but is it alive! I want to hear that cry!!! Did something

go wrong in my carrying my child. Is it still-born. Did it not form properly.

Please let me hear my baby's cry so I will know it is ALIVE!!!! Then a

cry bursts forth and the mother knows her child has been born ALIVE!!!

She has heard a certain sound, a SIGN which tells her her baby is ALIVE!

Now, in the spiritual, "seed" is planted by faith in the Word of God. It is

conceived and nurtured and as this "burden" is carried, in the fulness of

time, there should be a point of travail, perhaps weeping, groanings and

in time there is sweet deliverance! As the "mother, church" that is giving

birth to this "child" realizes this child has been delivered, she listens for a

certain "sound". She wants to know that this is a LIVE birth. Suddenly there

is a sound that lets her (church, mother) know that it is indeed a LIVE

birth. No, it is not the cry of a natural birth, but it is the cry of a spiritual,

because that cry is the language of the Spirit!! The mother (church) knows

by that certain sound that this "child" has been "born again" because this

"man-child" is speaking their Father's language!!

Jesus said in John 3, that except a MAN be born of water and

and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Is not the

water (water baptism) and the Spirit (spirit baptism). And would he not

began to speak the language of the Spirit when he enters into the

kingdom of God (Spirit). God is a Spirit! If you come into this world,

you would expect to speak the language of that family or father!

These thoughts are not to offend or be in agreement or disagreement

with anyone. They are for sincere dialogue.

Blessings,

Falla39

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.

I don't think the Bible states that the Samaritans spoke in tongues when the apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But it was obvious that something happened because Simon understood they were filled with the Spirit by some outward manifestation.

How do you explain away the sound that is heard in John 3.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

and this verse in 1 Corinthians 14 and Isaiah 28?

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

or the most compelling verses found in Acts 10 and 11:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

The Samaritans sent for the apostles to pray for them to receive the Holy Ghost. They were evidently seeking God for the gift.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sam

Many folks have been saved/regenerated (born of the Spirit) before they were baptized in the Spirit.

Please, where can I find this teaching in the Bible?