Sinful union?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If we sin as a saint according to your initial response to kwaiQ, we will be separated from the Holy Spirit which is in us. Recognizing this sin is not the same as confessing and repenting of it. Would you call a saint who falls into sin as one that abides in Christ?

We abide in him if we don't sin. What prevents the Spirit from coming and going constantly in a Christian who is struggling with a sin?

Another example might be the churches in the book of Revelation. Why didn't Jesus take the candlestick away and remove his Spirit from the churches with whom he was displeased?

I did not say the believer who sins will be separated from God. Because sin has been dealt with in the heart of the believer, the believer abides in Christ even if he should stumble. On the other hand, sin has not been dealt with in the heart of the unbeliever. The believer is righteous before God because he rests "in Christ," while the unbeliever rests "outside of Christ" on his own inadequate merit and is viewed as being under sin and unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).

The believer perpetually abides in Christ (and the spirit of Christ in him) because he perpetually believes. Like each of us sitting at our computers are now in a constant state of "being" physically alive, believers in Christ are in a constant state of "being" spiritually alive. They are in a constant state of "being" righteous because they are perpetually receiving God's righteousness imputed to them through faith in Christ (Romans 3:21-22). In Christ we are perpetually alive and right before God, therefore perpetually forgiven. By virtue of constant faith in Christ who is our righteousness (1Corinthians 1:30) we remain constantly right before God...... even when we stumble.

Our rightness before God is not dependent on our right actions (Romans 4:4-8) but on God's righteousness. Since our salvation is based fully on a righteousness imputed to us we need not freak out when we stumble and fall. If we should find that we have stumbled we must simply rely on the cross, remember we are crucified with Christ and recognize we live not because of our works but because Christ lives in us by faith (Galatians 2:17-21).

The sins of those who have not believed are still imputed to them, they are still condemned to eternal separation from God and will remain thus until they are no longer under sin by virtue of being "in Christ" (John 3:14-18; Romans 8:1).

I am under the impression it is being suggested by many that Cornelius had the life of Christ living in him while he was yet under sin. I do not see this as being theologically possible.

Hope this helped. God bless.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

His Spirit guides us and comforts us. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice the last part of Titus 3:5 renewing of the Holy Ghost.

this word in the Greek is:
anakainōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better
Part of Speech: noun feminine

God's Holy Spirit guided Cornelius, a repentant man to a saved relationship with God by the Blood of Jesus Christ being applied through his baptism. This man was clean, just as the man delivered from a devil was clean for a season. The "home" of the unclean Spirit was clean. The same could be said of Cornelius. He was clean, yet not delivered. See Mat 12:43-45.

Baptism is required for salvation.
Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5
Mat 3:16 Jesus shows us the example

If Cornelius' "house (heart)" could be cleansed enough for the indwelling of the Spirit of God..... what was the need for Calvary? Again, I think you've degraded the significance of the Cross.

Those who have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them are no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1-2,9). That a man can be purified by faith and indwelt by the Spirit of God yet remain in a state of condemnation until baptism seems theologically skewed. I'll need you to clarify this one. Maybe it would help if you told me the significance of the cross in your theology.

Thanks

[KwaiQ]

The cross has no significance. The shed blood has a great deal of significance. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

[KwaiQ]

The cross has become an idol to many who call themselves Christian.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Mizpeh must every verse speaking of baptism always refer to water baptism only or exclusively ....?

The verses that say 'into Christ' are about water baptism. Surely in Rom 6:3 you can see how baptism into his death is water baptism and not Spirit baptism. If we are united with Christ in the likeness of his death it is because we have likewise died to sin when we were baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of our sins. In water baptism our 'old self' or 'the body of sin' is done away with...which is the same as the remission of sins...an actual circumcision made without hands [by the Spirit] in which we are made to be 'freed from sin'.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with {Him} in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be {in the likeness} of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.


Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


How are we made children of God by faith in Christ Jesus? for (because) we have been baptized into Christ.Can you show me where Spirit baptism would be the same as being baptized into Christ or would it not rather be Christ in us the hope of glory? The wording 'into Christ' linked with baptism is water baptism. We are in Christ when we are in the body of Christ. We are brought into that body of Christ or into Christ by the new birth of which water is a part. It is by the Spirit of Christ that we are baptized into one body. The Spirit does a work in us when we go under the water calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. A work of removing the body of sins or remitting our sins....its more than what we commonly call forgiveness.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[fn3] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,



Sorry, Dan, I don't have time to address the rest of your post tonight.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

The cross has no significance. The shed blood has a great deal of significance. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.......The cross has become an idol to many who call themselves Christian.

Now, you wouldn't be trying to divert this discussion in an attempt to avoid addressing the theological implications of your position would you?

If a man's heart can be clean enough for the Holy Spirit to indwell it, why is there a need to further remit sins?

If the shed blood of Calvary is for the remission of sins, and sins are remitted in water baptism, why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the Holy Spirit could indwell a man without the need of sin remission?

Why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the spirit of man could be quickened to new life by the indwelling living Spirit of God without sin remission?

You have a huge problem here.

The purpose of Christ's death on the cross is negated if the heart can be made alive without sin remission.

Christianity without the cross?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

Now, you wouldn't be trying to divert this discussion in an attempt to avoid addressing the theological implications of your position would you?

If a man's heart can be clean enough for the Holy Spirit to indwell it, why is there a need to further remit sins?

If the shed blood of Calvary is for the remission of sins, and sins are remitted in water baptism, why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the Holy Spirit could indwell a man without the need of sin remission?

Why was it necessary to shed the blood of Christ if the spirit of man could be quickened to new life by the indwelling living Spirit of God without sin remission?

You have a huge problem here.

The purpose of Christ's death on the cross is negated if the heart can be made alive without sin remission.

Christianity without the cross?

Yep. And then there is the little problem of forgiveness and remission being the same.

Carry on Adino ....

[KwaiQ]

The direct evidence of the scriptures I have quoted are huge theologically for you and yours. Explain why God considers it necessary for salvation.

Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

The direct evidence of the scriptures I have quoted are huge theologically for you and yours. Explain why God considers it necessary for salvation.

Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5

Not to mention how do you explain how a holy God cannot live in a vessel with unremitted sin, yet if that soul sin after being filled with the Spirit, God will remain in a that sin-laden vessel until confession and repentance is made and the blood of Jesus Christ washes away the sin. How is the first scenario any different that the second?

I cannot see the difference. Sin is sin. Holy is holy.

There must be another explanation than "Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?" because we know that we all have sinned since being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I believe Adino danced around this issue in his last post in response to what I wrote.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Where do you get this notion that water baptism activates the Spirit to regeneration?

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul doesn't seem to think of the baptisms as works of righteousness.

John the Baptist was clear that what made Jesus baptism distinctive from his own baptism was not water ... but a baptism from above ... or Spiritual New Birth and immersion.

The efficacy is in the Spirit of Life....

31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel." 32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

The baptism of John was superceded by baptism in Jesus' name. The disciples of John in Ephesus had to be rebaptized in Jesus name.

The efficacy is in the blood which the Spirit applies to our souls. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission. What is the circumcision made without hands? And who performs that circumcision? The Spirit is involved in every aspect of a person coming to God including the new birth of water and Spirit.