Christian Life Center Stockton CA

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

naming people on an internet forum is not cool and I something I wont do out of love and respect for the people involved.

How about just naming the church and city and let folks do their own investigating?

[CC1]

Originally Posted by n david

This isn't aimed at CC1 or you, but I've had this debate with people in the past . . .

Some people will criticize a church for what they believe is lack of growth (numbers), but then they will criticize a church who is growing and publishes their growth (numbers).

What is the primary reason for the church? Is it to win new souls? Or, is it to instruct, edify and send out those who are already believers?

If the primary mission of the church is to win new souls, then there should be consistent numerical growth.

If the primary mission of the church is to instruct, edify and send out those who are already believers, then it is possible a church may not show much numerical growth at all.

I would hope a church would endeavor to do both! What good is it to win people to the Lord if you don't disciple them?

To your point though I do understand there are situations where the size of a church and its growth are constrained by circumstances. For example a church in a small rural community might actually be in an area of declining and aging population. That church could not fairly be judged as not doing a good job if it did not exhbit much growth. On the other hand I don't believe there is any excuse for a church in a populous area not growing as there are plenty of people to reach.

[n david]

Originally Posted by CC1

I would hope a church would endeavor to do both! What good is it to win people to the Lord if you don't disciple them?

Absolutely. There are some churches that are baptism mills - they work and push to have people baptized and filled with the HG, but then forget about discipleship.

What is better: a church which baptizes 5,000 in a year and retains 1%, or the church which baptizes 25 in a year and retains them all?

Originally Posted by CC1

To your point though I do understand there are situations where the size of a church and its growth are constrained by circumstances. For example a church in a small rural community might actually be in an area of declining and aging population. That church could not fairly be judged as not doing a good job if it did not exhbit much growth. On the other hand I don't believe there is any excuse for a church in a populous area not growing as there are plenty of people to reach.

I was not thinking of this, but you make a good point. There are certainly some smaller cities and towns which could restrict the growth of a church.

There are some churches which are focused on the "instruct, edify and send out" approach. They may not have much numerical growth because they more or less replace believers with new converts. This type of church sends out believers to ministries (missionaries, evangelists, pastors, new church plants, etc) while helping to disciple new converts.

The church my father pastored reached its apex at 175, though the average was closer to 140. During that time, there were several families who moved away into various ministries. Some became pastors of new churches, a few young people went to bible school and either became evangelists or married men who are pastors. Some would look at that and criticize it as lack of growth. Certainly the city was large enough that it could have grown larger, I would not argue that. I do believe the church did well with what it had.

Look at POA. It's been in the current building, which seats approx. 3,000 or so, for over 25 years. It has not added any services, only has the Sunday AM and PM services. However, I would bet there are a lot of families who have left POA to go into ministry somewhere else. I would imagine they have the same kind of circle, where new converts come in, are disciple, and mature believers leave to go into the ministry. I certainly would not criticize Anthony Mangun, or claim POA is not experiencing growth.

I don't know much about CLC or Nathaniel Haney, but I do remember visiting there back in the late 90s and they had numerous church plants throughout the area. It could be they experience the same kind of circle.

[n david]

Originally Posted by CC1

How about just naming the church and city and let folks do their own investigating?

What is AFF, if not a place to "discuss the issues." (By name and location)

[Scott Pitta]

u rock n David. Thoughtful post.

[Amanah]

n David, I have always believed that the purpose is to seek and save the lost and if you are not wining souls you are missing the mark.

But it seems to me that our satellite campus is focusing on establishing the people we have and securing our families right now, and numerical growth will come later.

[Esaias]

I thought our job was to be witnesses, and God's job was to do the saving? When did we fire God and take over His job?

[CC1]

Originally Posted by n david

Absolutely. There are some churches that are baptism mills - they work and push to have people baptized and filled with the HG, but then forget about discipleship.

What is better: a church which baptizes 5,000 in a year and retains 1%, or the church which baptizes 25 in a year and retains them all?

There are also churches that have growth and also discipleship programs simultaneously. Of course people have to avail themselves of the opportunities available. In addition to midweek small groups covering various subjects my church has "Experience University" that has several semesters a year where courses like Apologetics are taught. In addition there are other opportunities for discipleship and then a program for training ministers.

Of course there is not the same pressure at a church like ours for people to conform to a list of standards so I am sure there is a greater percentage of casual church goers than there is at most traditional Pentecostal churches where you are generally given a certain amount of time to line up to the laundry list then are either in or out. If not directly then by peer pressure.

When I attended Christ Church Nashville I always said that out of the 4,000 people that attended each Sunday there were probably 2,000 with the intensity and committment of a typical old time Pentecostal church. I would not have changed anything though because we were still there for that other 2,000 and them hearing the word will not return void.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I thought our job was to be witnesses, and God's job was to do the saving? When did we fire God and take over His job?

Thank you for keeping me straight Esaias.

[madras]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Thank you for keeping me straight Esaias.

I see that there are a few who feel that it is their duty to set people straight.