sin unto death?

[Aquila]

Maybe it's best to view this as sin that leads to the judgment of God. God may choose to judge a person by taking them out, yet ultimately save their soul. Or... God may judge someone, take them out, and condemn them forever. It's up to God.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Maybe it's best to view this as sin that leads to the judgment of God. God may choose to judge a person by taking them out, yet ultimately save their soul. Or... God may judge someone, take them out, and condemn them forever. It's up to God.

Well, now you'll have me argue semantics; wouldn't that have been translated the same as the previous? But it isn't. That "a" in there...it seems the commentaries have as much problem with it as we are.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Well, now you'll have me argue semantics; wouldn't that have been translated the same as the previous? But it isn't. That "a" in there...it seems the commentaries have as much problem with it as we are.

lol Very true.

[Dedicated Mind]

hasn't the catholic church defined seven deadly sins? sins that can lead to damnation, unlike less grave sins that might not jeopardize our salvation.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

hasn't the catholic church defined seven deadly sins? sins that can lead to damnation, unlike less grave sins that might not jeopardize our salvation.

Ha, yup; if only they could back it up with Scripture...

[Jay]

Last I checked, all sins were sins that condemned the soul to Hell.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Jay

Last I checked, all sins were sins that condemned the soul to Hell.

Then what is your interpretation here? I've spent several hours on this, at this point (42 minutes), and ruled out blasphemy of Holy Spirit, prolly the most obvious...

I also think I have to back off of such a strict interpretation of the use of "a" here, "a sin that leads to death," as necessarily being a single sin; even in the context of this verse, where no "a" occurred for "sin that does not lead to death," because it can be a literary device that would indicate a class, and thus still be plural.

I think the best instances of this "a sin that leads to death" are in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 7:16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."

Jeremiah 11:14 "Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress."

Jeremiah 14:11 Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people."

possibly best summarized as

Numbers 15:30 "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people."

So, the same sin a neo might commit in ignorance might have me condemned to death.

[bbyrd009]

Which the popists may have just (naturally) been more zealous in codifying?

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

hasn't the catholic church defined seven deadly sins? sins that can lead to damnation, unlike less grave sins that might not jeopardize our salvation.

[Jay]

You would not say that if you had read the entire portion instead of just grabbing a few verses. God commands Jeremiah to not pray, petition, or plead for them, because they were not repentant of very specific sins. These include idolatry, ritual murder, blatant murder, a variety of perversion, injustice, violence, etc. The entire Law was broken habitually and deliberately by the people of Judah. After many warnings, returnings, pleadings, and travailings over them, God was sick of them. That is why the warnings were given. Read the Kings, Chronicles, and Prophets, and you will find very specific reasons that God gave them to judgment.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I'm finding the commentary on this pretty...unhelpful.

If truth be known, I think that the manner in which Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, which you've previously mentioned, provides what is perhaps the best [most accurate] explanation or definition of what John's phrase - "sin unto death" - truly implies.

["The Greek (ἁμαρτία πρὸς θάνατον hamartia pros thanaton) would mean properly a sin which "tends" to death; which would "terminate" in death; of which death was the penalty, or would be the result, unless it were arrested; a sin which, if it had its own course, would terminate thus, as we should speak of a disease "unto death."]

Let's consider an example (one among many in the scriptures) which provides evidence of the fate of a "righteous" man who continually commits an act(s) of "unrighteousness;" bearing at the fore of our thoughts that John also advises that "All unrighteousness is sin" (I John 5:17); and the action God undertakes to 1.) assist the offender to be made aware of his "unrighteousness" and 2.) it's eventual consequences if it is left unattended (by repentance and refraining from doing such sinful acts in the future):

"When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." (Ezekiel 3:20-21)

Comparing the context of these passages with John's phrase; and using Barnes' Notes as our guide in attempting to understand the manner in which one might be found guilty of having committed an act(s) of "unrighteousness" [which the offender was apparently unaware of], then we see that God will always send someone to the guilty party so that the two(2) things I've noted might be accomplished; for if left unattended after being so informed, death would be the eventual consequence of such sinful deeds, hence, it can rightly be called a "sin unto death."

As I noted, there are other examples of some rather notable "holy men" of olden times who were found guilty of having committed acts of "unrighteousness" on a continual basis, whom God took action to cause them to become aware of their sinful deeds; however, we find that if the demanded corrective steps had not been undertaken by the offender, death would have been it's result, hence, they had committed a "sin unto death." Indeed, the scriptures tell us of one such notable individual whom He had found to be guilty of having (unwittingly/ignorantly/neglectfully) commited a "sin unto death," yet after the demanded corrective actions had been accomplished, that man of renown performed some of the most remarkable accomplishments for God than any other (excepting Christ Jesus, of course) that the Bible relates.... want to know who that man was? You'll perhaps be quite surprised to learn of him and his continual act of "unrighteousnes" which could have led to his death!