Ballestero's Holymess god lives in YESTERDAY ...

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Sam

this is from “What Oneness Pentecostals Believe and Teach,” third edition by B.E. Echols, Marshall, TX, 1956 pages 10-12

A few things the Oneness Pentecostal People believe and teach that a Christian should NOT do or partake of are: drink beer, wine, whiskey ... use snuff or tobacco ...attend or take part in basketball, football and baseball games, picture shows, boxing and wrestling matches, visit pool halls, play golf or cards, dance, go swimming where both sexes are present ... telling jokes ... reading funny papers, novels ... listening in on comic radio programs and ungodly TV broadcasts. All such things rob a Christian of his spirituality and will eventually drown his soul in perdition.

Christian women should not bob their hair (1 Cor 11:5-11) get permanents (1 Tim 2:9, 10), wear jewelry as ornaments (this applies to men also); wear socks, use rouge and lip-stick or paint their eyebrows, eyelashes or fingernails; neither should they wear low neck, short skirt and short-sleeve dresses --especially in public ... (they should) abstain from all lustful and pagan customs of the ungodly, such as necking, kissing, spooning and keeping late hours at night.

What about breathing? lol

[Sabby]

holyness = rules of conduct

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Sam

this is from “What Oneness Pentecostals Believe and Teach,” third edition by B.E. Echols, Marshall, TX, 1956 pages 10-12

A few things the Oneness Pentecostal People believe and teach that a Christian should NOT do or partake of are: drink beer, wine, whiskey ... use snuff or tobacco ...attend or take part in basketball, football and baseball games, picture shows, boxing and wrestling matches, visit pool halls, play golf or cards, dance, go swimming where both sexes are present ... telling jokes ... reading funny papers, novels ... listening in on comic radio programs and ungodly TV broadcasts. All such things rob a Christian of his spirituality and will eventually drown his soul in perdition.

Christian women should not bob their hair (1 Cor 11:5-11) get permanents (1 Tim 2:9, 10), wear jewelry as ornaments (this applies to men also); wear socks, use rouge and lip-stick or paint their eyebrows, eyelashes or fingernails; neither should they wear low neck, short skirt and short-sleeve dresses --especially in public ... (they should) abstain from all lustful and pagan customs of the ungodly, such as necking, kissing, spooning and keeping late hours at night.

So, it's okay as long as you do it in private......and spooning.....lol, who would do that in public anyway!!!!!

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Sam

I can't speak for Dan, but I don't think he has a root of bitterness growing.

My wife some times asks me why I hang out here and why do I care what the UPC is doing. We have not gone to a UPC church since the early 1960's when we started going to an ALJC church. We have not been part of that ALJC church since 1978 or so and have been members of a couple trinity churches since the nineteen nineties. I am ordained in one of the Church of Jesus Christ organizations which goes back to 1927 and am also ordained in our local church which is trinity.

Why do I care what goes on in the UPC?
Well, the UPC is the most visible and the largest OP organization that I am familiar with. As the UPC goes, so goes much of the OP's. It bothers me to see what the UPC has become from its beginnings in 1945 with a tolerant gentlemen's agreement based on the fundamental doctrine statement to what I perceive it to be today. It has grown large and powerful; the ministers are growing old and young ministers are not joining; it has become very controlling; it requires more and more money to feed and maintain the monster; it has passed on a form of revisionist history to the people and they think that only the current UPC party line is really "Apostolic"; in some ways they have their head stuck up their posterior and are living in an imaginary world; it is desperately thrashing around trying to maintain control and status quo as it becomes more and more out of touch with reality; many are hung up over "the good old days" that never were really that good; it has become more ingrown and isolated; it has become an unwieldy, bloated, top heavy religious/political organization; it has a "bunker mentality" of "us vs. them"; I could probably say more but I better get off my soapbox.

Two things I see when I look at the UPC.
1. a Frankenstein type creation that was originally created with good intentions but has developed into an out of control monster fighting, and destroying anyone or anything in its pathway.
2. a victim who was descending from Jerusalem to Jericho who fell among thieves that left it wounded, naked, bleeding, and half dead.

You are being very eloquent and kind. As the youth go, so go the churches. You can also say, where the youth go, so go the churches. They are NOT interested in what USED to be or what USED to work in the Kingdom of God growth. The most on - fire (now that's an old term) youth involvement I have seen have come from independent/non-organizational churches, and believe me, they are NOT preaching "requirements" but rather a relationship.

[MissBrattified]

Overall, preachers have the right and obligation to preach and teach what they feel is necessary and important to their congregations. I don't take issue with Bro. Ballestero at all for having conservative beliefs. I don't agree with all his specific applications of scripture, and I don't think that most of the items on his list even fall under the category of "holiness", but that doesn't mean he's a man of low character. That said, a few points:

1. Bro. Ballestero lists this scripture as an endorsement of following in your parents' footsteps. II Chronicles 17:3 And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;

Obviously Jehoshaphat didn't follow in ALL the ways of his "father" David, because he would have been an adulterer & murderer if that were the case. This scripture is pointing out that he followed the ways of David, in the sense that he didn't seek after Baalim, e.g., false gods. We aren't expected to follow in our predecessors' footsteps blindly, without differentiating between where they were right or wrong. Ultimately, God determines whether we've chosen correctly, and we would do better to adhere to His plumb line than any person who has gone before us.

2. Did MB REALLY read this scripture: Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Hello!!!??? The tradition of men is listed right there with rudiments of the world, philosophy and vain deceit. (And many traditions would also fall under the category of "vain deceit" or "empty delusion.") Follow Christ, and don't be spoiled by...the tradition of men.

3. Esau - "God called him a fornicator. Not because he was morally impure, but because his heart wasn’t faithful to God."

What does this have to do with honoring the past? Esau didn't honor God in the present. He had a birthright, and he willingly gave up the blessing of God for something as trivial and carnal as a bowl of soup. He treated a gift from God as if it was equal to a meal. That has nothing at all to do with disrespecting the past, and everything to do with disrespecting God.


4. "Today, I humbly echo Jeremiah’s advice. Ask for the Old Paths, that’s the good way. Ask for Yesterday. Walk in Yesterday. You will find rest there for your soul."

I propose that instead of walking in Yesterday, we follow Romans 8:4-6:

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Apparently, walking after the Spirit is where we will find "life and peace." It also allows the "righteousness of the law...[to] be fulfilled in us...."

Isn't this the solution to all the problems presented by MB? Walking after the Spirit keeps people from fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the righteousness of the law in us, AND it brings life and peace. Isn't it simpler to lift a solution right out of scripture? Or is it too scary because it once again leaves the ultimate decision in the hands of the individual, as to whether they will actually walk after the Spirit?

[MissBrattified]

If, in the pursuit of God and righteousness, I also follow in some of the same paths taken by my parents or grandparents, that's a good thing. However, each person's life should be an original, authentic lifetime of choices that are made in following GOD; not people. When you make a practice of following people without referencing God as your plumb line, it is inevitable that you will eventually be off course. Appreciate your heritage; yes. Follow traditions just for the sake of it? No.

This thread made me think of:

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

[berkeley]

Miss Brattified,

For what it's worth, you'd be a good "pastor and teacher".

[Sister Alvear]

I agree...and I know her personally!

[Sister Alvear]

I cannot always agree that ALL of yesterday´s past traditions are good are even healthful...
For example The Assembly of God when I first came to Brazil had a lists of do´s and do nots..
1. Women and girls cannot ride a bike.
2. You cannot have a bird in a cage.
3. Women must wear their hair in a bun.
4. Preachers had to wear a suit.
5. You could not give your kids a ball...the soccer spirit would be upon them for sure.


and on and on....

Some traditions are good. Some things are clear in the word of the Lord at least for me, other things are convictions.

We need to have respect for each other.

Gotta answer the phone....

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Bro Ballestero is a fine Christian man who is about as balanced as they come....hardly the raving extremist that I am sure DA would like to portray him (and anybody that believes in Holiness standards) as....

DA continues his disgusting habit of spending his time scouring the internet trying to find ammo to use against traditional OP's....the impression I get from him is that he is eaten up by a root of bitterness that manifests itself with his unhealthy preoccupation with and hatred for the UPC....


Get over it Dude....

Any comments about Ballestero's words about those who disagree being "non-Apostolic" and falling into delusion?

I don't know MB, but his words sounded quite 'ravenous' and 'extreme.' He uses a much more gentle tone, but the content is the same.