Huntley tonite: Acts 2:38 is the Only Gospel

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by DAII

No, you don't see eye to eye with Paul, DWW. He clearly speaks of all three in relation to baptism and you want to force your three-step soul wash on him.

DAII, generally doesn't burial take place after the death? Jesus wasn't buried alive. You really don't beleive that repentance is a death of the old man?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

No act of obedience is need for salvation, isn't that what you've been touting DA? Just mental ascent and all is well? The only doing needed is to beleive?

You can go on with that but you'd need to disregard Hebrews and James when it comes to true faith. Why is it that each of the hero's of faith in Hebrews seems to mention the actions they took?

Or what of James:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith can not live without action.

This doesn't prove the UPC doctrine at all. All James does is affirm that we are justified by faith, NOT by any human achievement or obedience. However, James' point is simply that true faith (aka saving faith) ALWAYS results in action. Saving faith is obedient faith. Saving faith is submissive faith. Saving faith is living faith. A mere mental assent to the facts of the gospel without any further action simply proves dead faith, and thereby an absence of saving faith. James quite specifically disqualifies "easy believism", as does John throughout
1 John.

We are justified (saved) at the point of faith/repentance, but the EVIDENCE of that faith is in our good works(Epehsians 2:10), the first among which should be water baptism so that we can identify with the death burrial and resurrection of Christ.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

You mean that Jesus Christ would die for those predestined from the foundation.

No, that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. No one is predestined to be damned.

Atonement is only limited in the sense that it is limited to those who place their faith in Jesus Christ and therefore have his righteousness imputed to their account.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

This doesn't prove the UPC doctrine at all. All James does is affirm that we are justified by faith, NOT by any human achievement or obedience. However, James' point is simply that true faith (aka saving faith) ALWAYS results in action. Saving faith is obedient faith. Saving faith is submissive faith. Saving faith is living faith. A mere mental assent to the facts of the gospel without any further action simply proves dead faith, and thereby an absence of saving faith. James quite specifically disqualifies "easy believism", as does John throughout
1 John.

We are justified (saved) at the point of faith/repentance, but the EVIDENCE of that faith is in our good works(Epehsians 2:10), the first among which should be water baptism so that we can identify with the death burrial and resurrection of Christ.

Pretty sure that's what RevDWW just said.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Pretty sure that's what RevDWW just said.

I hope so, but I find it more likely that his interpretation is that the "works" of James 2 equals water baptism and speaking in tongues, I know this is the view of some UPC pastors. And through THOSE works we are justified.

What I said is specifically that we are justified PRIOR to any such works on our part such as baptism or anything else. But if our faith is true saving faith such things as water baptism and a godly life will FOLLOW salvation, and be evidence of salvation, but those things are not in themselves the CAUSE of salvation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I hope so, but I find it more likely that his interpretation is that the "works" of James 2 equals water baptism and speaking in tongues, I know this is the view of some UPC pastors. And through THOSE works we are justified.

What I said is specifically that we are justified PRIOR to any such works on our part such as baptism or anything else. But if our faith is true saving faith such things as water baptism and a godly life will FOLLOW salvation, and be evidence of salvation, but those things are not in themselves the CAUSE of salvation.

However, James' point is simply that true faith (aka saving faith) ALWAYS results in action. Saving faith is obedient faith. Saving faith is submissive faith. Saving faith is living faith. A mere mental assent to the facts of the gospel without any further action simply proves dead faith, and thereby an absence of saving faith. James quite specifically disqualifies "easy believism", as does John throughout I John.

To clarify - I was saying that RevDWW was saying the same thing as you said in the above paragraph - "Saving faith is obedient faith, submissive faith, living faith, not mere mental assent without further action."

I do not agree that you are saved at repentance or the Word would not say in I Peter 3:21 "even baptism doth also now save us" or it wouldn't say in Romans 8:9 "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Acts 2:38 covers all three necessary elements of obedient faith, submissive faith and living faith. It preaches, concisely, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our response to that. Even though we have the choice to be obedient to repentance and baptism, we must also desire/pray to receive His Spirit also (Luke 11:13). A free gift, something we cannot give ourselves, but necessary nonetheless. It is salvific regardless what others preach.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

To clarify - I was saying that RevDWW was saying the same thing as you said in the above paragraph - "Saving faith is obedient faith, submissive faith, living faith, not mere mental assent without further action."

I do not agree that you are saved at repentance or the Word would not say in I Peter 3:21 "even baptism doth also now save us" or it wouldn't say in Romans 8:9 "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Acts 2:38 covers all three necessary elements of obedient faith, submissive faith and living faith. It preaches, concisely, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our response to that. Even though we have the choice to be obedient to repentance and baptism, we must also desire/pray to receive His Spirit also (Luke 11:13). A free gift, something we cannot give ourselves, but necessary nonetheless. It is salvific regardless what others preach.

But of course the entire Gospel of John speaks of salvation and God's saving in terms that need qualifying.

Perhaps it's the Romans "Baptism also saves us" and "have not the SOG you are none of His" need some further examination to be consistent.

We are saved the same way Abram was. Called by Grace, trusted and believed, it was accounted as righteousness. Creating a soteriology on the grounds of everything else is an unfortunate disservice to the effectual work of Grace.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

...
We are saved the same way Abram was. Called by Grace, trusted and believed, it was accounted as righteousness. Creating a soteriology on the grounds of everything else is an unfortunate disservice to the effectual work of Grace.

AMEN!!!

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

But of course the entire Gospel of John speaks of salvation and God's saving in terms that need qualifying.

Perhaps it's the Romans "Baptism also saves us" and "have not the SOG you are none of His" need some further examination to be consistent.

We are saved the same way Abram was. Called by Grace, trusted and believed, it was accounted as righteousness. Creating a soteriology on the grounds of everything else is an unfortunate disservice to the effectual work of Grace.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Would Abe have been justified if he had not obeyed and carried out what God had commanded?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Would Abe have been justified if he had not obeyed and carried out what God had commanded?

Yes, according to Paul...

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

He was justified before circumcision...

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

I know its hard to accept faith in Christ as the only path to God, but it's really not complicated. Once we are saved and married to Christ, our faith produces good works pleasing to the Lord.