Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAunit01
Read my reply at the very bottom of page 1.
That chapter has nothing to do with legitimizing torture. Only when taken grossly out of context can it be used to support a pro-torture viewpoint. If we took that same interpretation of Ecclesiastes 3 would would have to say that there is a time for murder, rape and blasphemy.
Are all these things legitimate because the Ecclesiastes 3 says there is a time for all things? If torture is different, then how and why is it different?
You have a good point.
Because who America says she is, we are to do all we can to keep our reputation above reproach.
That being said, sometimes in war, somethings are necessary.
Maybe water boarding was never necessary from the beginning. I am not sure.
One thing I have formulated an opinion on is this: I do not consider water boarding to be torture.
Whether or not it was effective in its purpose is for other folks to discuss.
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Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY
Think of how many innocent lives may have been saved because of the methods used. Ask some of the 3,000 plus at 9-11 if it would have been worth it to save their lives. If it works I say Go for it. This is war of the worst kind. Drastic measures have been used as long as there has been wars.
You just proved my point. You can only argue for torture on utilitarian grounds not moral grounds. And even utilitarian arguments for torture are pretty shaky.
We could use the reasoning you just used above to justify any immoral action. And that is immoral and unChristian.
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Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAunit01
You just proved my point. You can only argue for torture on utilitarian grounds not moral grounds. And even utilitarian arguments for torture are pretty shaky.
We could use the reasoning you just used above to justify any immoral action. And that is immoral and unChristian.
What would you do to get information from terrorists that might lead to saving the lives of thousands of innocent people? Maybe take them out for a cup of Starbuck's and a doughnut. Theses people just as well be living under the law. They desire only one thing from you, that's your head on a platter, I'll take water boarding anytime. If they can't convert you they want to kill you. As for me, I prefer living to the age of 110 and being shot by a jealous husband.
Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
You've created a false dichotomy. It is not as if the only two choices are torture or a "cup of Starbuck's and a doughnut". There are other methods of interrogation that can be used.
Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAunit01
You've created a false dichotomy. It is not as if the only two choices are torture or a "cup of Starbuck's and a doughnut". There are other methods of interrogation that can be used.
Exactly. It's a false choice between two alternatives. It's not as if we either choose waterboarding or a 5 star resort.
Besides that you torture proponents can't point to a single case where torture actually gave us intelligence that saved lives. Not a single case. You can be certain that if Dick Cheney had any intelligence that backed up his bogus claims about torture he would have declassified them and proven himself right.
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Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAR
Exactly. It's a false choice between two alternatives. It's not as if we either choose waterboarding or a 5 star resort.
Besides that you torture proponents can't point to a single case where torture actually gave us intelligence that saved lives. Not a single case. You can be certain that if Dick Cheney had any intelligence that backed up his bogus claims about torture he would have declassified them and proven himself right.
Maybe I missed something but if Dick could declassify he would.
The CIA has rejected Dick Cheney's request to release classified information on interrogations — info he believed would prove waterboarding and other techniques were effective in extracting information from terror detainees.
Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAR
Exactly. It's a false choice between two alternatives. It's not as if we either choose waterboarding or a 5 star resort.
Besides that you torture proponents can't point to a single case where torture actually gave us intelligence that saved lives. Not a single case. You can be certain that if Dick Cheney had any intelligence that backed up his bogus claims about torture he would have declassified them and proven himself right.
CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
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Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron1710
CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
"In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles."
According to this fact sheet from the White House concerning a speech President Bush gave in 2002, our intelligence agencies had already foiled a plot by KSM to "hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast." KSM wasn't even in custody in 2002.
Apparently we didn't need waterboarding to foil the plot that you've alluded to Baron.
Waterboarding is torture, doesn't produce useful intelligence, and shouldn't be used by the United States.
Re: Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Tort
So is he for or against it? And have other countries used it on American POW'S?
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He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
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