Proof Of Soul Sleep

[mfblume]

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

I know the context. I am very aware of it. But you are misreading it. There would be no option to be absent from the body if you were correct. Absence from the body means NAKEDNESS of the soul and spirit. The BODY is what clothes the soul and spirit. WE are soul and spirit, CLOTHED BY A BODY. And WE can be absent from the body. This means soul and spirit is apart from the body. Nothing says anything about soul sleep in mortal death here in the context. It actually is saying the opposite.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

Nobody said it was given at death, except full preterists. The resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15 is a yet-future rapture when we gain new bodies. In the meantime, we ARE NAKED without a body, by being ABSENT FROM THE BODY, when we die and are with the Lord. At the resurrection, we rejoin the soul and spirit to the body, but the body is rendered IMMORTAL then.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

This has nothing to do with saying we are sleeping in soul while absent from the body.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

You are missing something very important. WE ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, according to 1 John.

1Jo 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Our souls and spirits are already immortal. Only our BODIES (tabernacles) are mortal. And when we read of mortality putting on immortality, that is not speaking of the soul or spirit but of the MORTAL BODY in which we presently groan. You are not seeing the distinction of the "WE" from the body in 2 Cor 5. Paul spoke of himself as SOMETHING IN A BODY. And he can be ABSENT FROM THE BODY. What is absent from the body? PAUL. And since PAUL is distinguished from his BODY by the vocabulary he used, when he speaks of mortality putting on immortality he is speaking of the BODY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

This is in reference to the BODY, since 1 John clearly says we already have eternal life.

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

Actually immortal life IS NOT the same as eternal life. Something eternal HAS NO BEGINNING, brother. Many people forget or are unaware of that . Eternal means NO BEGINNING nor ending. Not just no ending.

When we understand what ETERNAL LIFE is, we realize it is something we CAN HAVE, in these of HAVING GOD, because ONLY GOD is eternal. "We" cannot be made eternal because we had a beginning whether we live forever or not.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

NO, brother. You jumped far too quick and formulated your belief about this issue before you even knew of the fact that ETERNAL LIFE is GOD, and is no beginning nor ending. Also, THE CONTEXT IS THE BODY in 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15. You need to more thoroughly research these issues before you jump to false conclusions based on lack of full awareness of the beliefs about this.

1) Since the BODY is what is made immortal at the resurrection, and not the soul nor spirit...

2) and since the context of 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 is the BODY...

3) and since Paul said we are NAKED when outside the body and absent from it...

4) and since 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 together agree and do not conflict...

5) the resurrection is when 2 Cor 5 is fulfilled when we receive a new body, while in the meantime we are absent from ANY body after death, and present with the Lord.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

He refers to the physical bodily death ceasing at the resurrection, when no one ever mortally dies again.

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

EXACTLY! But between death and the resurrection, the soul and spirit is absent from the body and with the Lord.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

You totally miss the context of the BODY being the subject, as well as mistaken what eternal life means.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

I agree! But we are absent from the body and with the Lord after death until death is eradicated and our bodies are made immortal, and rejoin those bodies.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is contrary to the letter and intent of Pauls words in 2 Cor. 5:

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:8-11

Verse 9 says the reason we labor is to be ACCEPTED OF HIM.

But accepted in what sense and in what category of acceptance????

We are saved before we ever die, and that is what Paul stated about some men's sins follow them while others' go before them. My sins went before me to judgment, and my judgment is not going to regard heaven or hell, but rewards or none.

Verse 10 tells WHEN that happens one way or the other.

Verse 11 warns Believers of the TERROR OF THE LORD.

But terror for what? Acceptance in what sense? You ASSUME it is heaven or hell, but it is not.

Why warn them about the TERROR OF THE LORD if they are going to be accepted having done nothing for the kingdom? Especially when Paul said he LABORED TO BE ACCEPTED of the Lord. Not labored for rewards.

We labour for rewards, OR ELSE YOU PROMOTE SALVATION BY WORKS.

The moment a person obeys Acts 2:38 THEY ARE SAVED without any works!

That Judaic origins of names and such-like deal you are into has seemingly taken you to salvation by works!

Rom 4:6 KJV Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No insult intended, but many believers need to get themselves a more modern translation of the Bible, because they are obviously messing up the context when they misread the version they are reading.

Soul sleep is simply nullified in 2 Cor 5.

Which translation are you recommending?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Which translation are you recommending?

I always recommend KJV above all, but there are some good ones that are modern in language, and really break it down easily, but you still have to watch out for some errors.

Contemporary English Version (CEV) is easy to follow.

International Standard Versions (ISV) is good.

THE MESSAGE is extremely easy to follow! lol

Analytical Literal Translation (ALT) is like the Amplified, but from the correct manuscripts. (NO ERRORS IN THIS ONE!)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I aalways recommend KJV above all, but there are some good ones that are modern in language, and really break it down easily, but you still have to watch out for some errors.

Contemporary English Version (CEV) is easy to follow.

International Standard Versions (ISV) is good.

THE MESSAGE is extremely easy to follow! lol

Analytical Literal Translation (ALT) is like the Amplified, but from the correct manuscripts.

Thanks, good I have these, so no problem. I was hoping you didn't pull something out of your hat that I didn't want. lol I use my KJV as my base.

Good thread, BTW.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Which translation are you recommending?

Pressing On,

That was meant for me. Everyone else I guess can handle The KJV.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The Father's house and mansions in this chapter has nothing to do with Heaven but rather Sonship.

How do you figure that?

[Michael The Disciple]

I know the context. I am very aware of it. But you are misreading it. There would be no option to be absent from the body if you were correct. Absence from the body means NAKEDNESS of the soul and spirit. The BODY is what clothes the soul and spirit. WE are soul and spirit, CLOTHED BY A BODY. And WE can be absent from the body. This means soul and spirit is apart from the body. Nothing says anything about soul sleep in mortal death here in the context. It actually is saying the opposite.

How comical! The poor naked spirit sitting in Heaven for thousands of years groaning for its body!

Mike the truth is that it is in THESE MORTAL BODIES that we groan! I think you must be the founder of this doctrine.

Nobody said it was given at death, except full preterists. The resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15 is a yet-future rapture when we gain new bodies. In the meantime, we ARE NAKED without a body, by being ABSENT FROM THE BODY, when we die and are with the Lord. At the resurrection, we rejoin the soul and spirit to the body, but the body is rendered IMMORTAL then.

I see nothing in 1 Cor. 15 about the spirit and soul rejoining the body at resurrection.

I do see where Paul says that THE DEAD will be made ALIVE at the second coming!

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

Reading it as it is reveals those who are DEAD being MADE ALIVE.

We are willing to be absent from THIS BODY and present with the Lord. Paul says when it will happen. When we are MADE ALIVE at the second coming.

You are missing something very important. WE ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, according to 1 John.

Wrong Michael. We have the downpayment of it.

13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14

That is like this:

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:22-25

The firstfruits and the earnest (Holy Spirit) stands in for eternal life until we receive it.

Again we see that its in our MORTAL BODY that we are groaning.

Our souls and spirits are already immortal. Only our BODIES (tabernacles) are mortal. And when we read of mortality putting on immortality, that is not speaking of the soul or spirit but of the MORTAL BODY in which we presently groan.

Souls are immortal?

29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

Peter said DAVID was both dead and buried in the grave.

It was DAVID. Not merely Davids body! Nothing about him being an immortal soul.

Actually immortal life IS NOT the same as eternal life.

Thats your words. Here is Pauls.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Those who seek IMMORTALITY receive what? ETERNAL LIFE!

NO, brother. You jumped far too quick and formulated your belief about this issue before you even knew of the fact that ETERNAL LIFE is GOD, and is no beginning nor ending. Also, THE CONTEXT IS THE BODY in 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15. You need to more thoroughly research these issues before you jump to false conclusions based on lack of full awareness of the beliefs about this.

1) Since the BODY is what is made immortal at the resurrection, and not the soul nor spirit...

Mike I never JUMPED to quick about this. I taught the same doctrine you now teach for 16 years. When I was challenged to look at another view point little by little the old traditional doctrine of instant Heaven vanished away. It could not stand against the WEIGHT OF SCRIPTURE I found.

[Michael The Disciple]

We labour for rewards, OR ELSE YOU PROMOTE SALVATION BY WORKS.

The moment a person obeys Acts 2:38 THEY ARE SAVED without any works!

That Judaic origins of names and such-like deal you are into has seemingly taken you to salvation by works!

Lets look at it again Mike. The writing of Paul.

9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:9-11

If I were reading this with no preconceived idea on the basis of verse 9 I would say he was laboring to BE ACCEPTED BY CHRIST.

The writing of receiving for the things done in the body good or bad is linked to the TERROR OF THE LORD.

You are accusing me of salvation by works. Paul seems to be saying that our acceptance at the judgment will depend on our works.

Actually this is all through scripture. Here is a sample:

12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


What you are promoting is an incomplete concept. We are certainly saved by faith. Yet tho that be true we will be judged by our works proving the sincerity of our faith.

If as Paul says we will be receiving for the deeds done in the body good or bad its obvious to me those who have done bad works will be cast into the lake of fire.

Consider the TERROR OF THE LORD.

I will not be teaching ANYONE they can enter the Kingdom of Yeshua the Messiah if they are doing bad works.

Oh yes and how do you suppose the fact that I use the original name of the Messiah produces salvation by works?

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.