Question For My Oneness Friends...

[My Own Eyes]

Originally Posted by BarbieGirl

If you're not Apostolic.....why did you join this forum? To try and change us????? Not changin'.

I hereby recommend that you NOT be on the AFF welcoming committee!

[TCSQ]

This is a piece of cake! in this vision we have what appear to be three different individuals referred to. 1.) The One on the throne, 2.) The Lion of the tribe of Judah and 3.) The Lamb that was slain.

What amazes me is that trinitarians usually have no trouble grasping that the Lion of the tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ and that the Lamb that was slain was ALSO Jesus Christ but it all seems to fall apart for them when they come to the ONE on the throne, which of course in Revelation chapter four we see is ALSO Jesus Christ! The key to understanding this vision is to realize it is not a vision concerning the Godhead, but rather the process that was undertaken in the incarnation where by the One who was on the throne in his deity also was the King of Israel as Lion of the tribe of Judah and also the lamb for sinners slain at calvary. This whole vision is about how that NO MAN was able to to open the seals except the MAN CHRIST JESUS the LAMB of God. So here we see Jesus as LION OF JUDAH the KING of Israel AND as the Lamb slain for sin the Redeemer of Israel AND as the One on the throne the God of Israel! The way this was portrayed in the vision so we might understand it refers to the interaction of Humanity (The Lamb) with Deity (The One on the throne ) in the sacrifice neccesary to open the seals. In other words a the reality of Pauls statement "To WIT (Understand) That God (The deity on the throne) was IN Christ (The Lamb of God) reconciling the world to himself. The vision is actually a typological reference to Calvary where the King of Israel (Jesus of Nazareth kING OF THE jEWS, LION OF THE TRIBE OF jUDAH) enters his ministry as the LAMB of God who was slain for the sins of man, who ALSO happens to be GOD manifest in the flesh, THE HOLY ONE Of Israel. Not three persons manifest here in the vision but rather the three roles that refer to Jesus Christ as the Lord God of Israel as the King of Israel son of David and as the Sacrifical Lamb of Israel as the song says Its ALL in him! Hope that helps...

[Carpenter]

oh boy. I thought for sure someone would mention this instead of giving the age-old canned Apostolic responses...and including the good old insults...

If you consider that the abstract is eternal and that eternity is abstract, you also have to consider that there is no beginning nor is there an end to that place where the Lord sits. The spectrum of time has ceased to exist. We as fallible human beings have only the context of time with which to relate our experience. Compound that with our Greek linear logic and you have a lethal combination.

This is why we are mistaken when we slap out a timeline in terms of thinking about Jesus being which IS, which WAS and which IS to come...the Almighty.

I say that folks are sadly mistaken when they can take the abstract, the immensity of heaven, and the manifistation of Almighty God and put it into the form fitting box of limited understand in the flesh.

Quick, someone describe why the quadratic equasion works...can't do it? Oh well.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by My Own Eyes

I hereby recommend that you NOT be on the AFF welcoming committee!

This was funny!

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

oh boy. I thought for sure someone would mention this instead of giving the age-old canned Apostolic responses...and including the good old insults...

If you consider that the abstract is eternal and that eternity is abstract, you also have to consider that there is no beginning nor is there an end to that place where the Lord sits. The spectrum of time has ceased to exist. We as fallible human beings have only the context of time with which to relate our experience. Compound that with our Greek linear logic and you have a lethal combination.

This is why we are mistaken when we slap out a timeline in terms of thinking about Jesus being which IS, which WAS and which IS to come...the Almighty.

I say that folks are sadly mistaken when they can take the abstract, the immensity of heaven, and the manifistation of Almighty God and put it into the form fitting box of limited understand in the flesh.

Quick, someone describe why the quadratic equasion works...can't do it? Oh well.

Come on Carpenter

YOU gotta love all the egos that come out when you start talking about the Godhead. I don't really like to debate. I was raised trinitarian and the Spirit of the Lord gave me understand of The I AM. Since it was given to me by the Spirit -- I cannot personally attack people who don't see it. I just pray for em.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by bkstokes

Come on Carpenter

YOU gotta love all the egos that come out when you start talking about the Godhead. I don't really like to debate. I was raised trinitarian and the Spirit of the Lord gave me understand of The I AM. Since it was given to me by the Spirit -- I cannot personally attack people who don't see it. I just pray for em.

This reminds me of a prisoner at one of the jails I used to minister in. I hadn't done any teaching on the Godhead or anything yet, and he asked me what God could mean by something He had said to him. He said he had been praying and telling God he wanted to know Him better and God told him, "I am one."

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by AbundantGrace

Read this passage of scripture carefully and think about what you're reading.

Rev 5:1 - 7:Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
NIV

A couple of questions. First of all, who is the Lamb? He's Jesus... I believe we can all agree on that, right?

But notice, it says that He (the Lamb, Jesus) came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. Now who is it that's sitting on the throne that Jesus, the Lamb is taking the scroll from?

Just wondering what your answers may be...

I think you are trying to stack the deck, and then answer your own questions. That's about as sharp as a bowling ball.

Is this a literal depiction of heavenly events?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

I think you are trying to stack the deck, and then answer your own questions. That's about as sharp as a bowling ball.

Is this a literal depiction of heavenly events?

I'd say it it primarily symbolic, since
1... it's a vision, and
2... Jesus is shown as being a lamb with seven eyes, etc.
Yet a) Jesus has never literally had seven eyes, and b) Jesus is obviously not an actual lamb...the lamb John saw simply symbolized His role as the Lamb of God.

The entire vision is rich with symbolism, so it would be inconsistent or even intellectually/theologically dishonest for someone to claim that the Rev. 5 passage is somehow supposed to depict a separation of persons in the Godhead. Hardly. The passage is essentially depicting Jesus, in His relation to the Father, receiving the scrolls from His Father, and receiving the authority to open them and to preside over the sequence of divinely-directed endtime events that follow each scroll's opening. The passage is meant to show the power and authority invested in Jesus by His Father; it is not a "Godhead scripture" by any means, although so many Trinitarians try to make it one.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I'd say it it primarily symbolic, since
1... it's a vision, and
2... Jesus is shown as being a lamb with seven eyes, etc.
Yet a) Jesus has never literally had seven eyes, and b) Jesus is obviously not an actual lamb...the lamb John saw simply symbolized His role as the Lamb of God.

The entire vision is rich with symbolism, so it would be inconsistent or even intellectually/theologically dishonest for someone to claim that the Rev. 5 passage is somehow supposed to depict a separation of persons in the Godhead. Hardly. The passage is essentially depicting Jesus, in His relation to the Father, receiving the scrolls from His Father, and receiving the authority to open them and to preside over the sequence of divinely-directed endtime events that follow each scroll's opening. The passage is mean to show the power and authority invested in Jesus by His Father; it is not a "Godhead scripture" by any means, although so many Trinitarians try to make it one.

Nicely stated, TRFrance.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by AbundantGrace

These are many of the answers that I expected to receive. I'm not here to argue. I just wanted to see what you'd say. I was raised in oneness all my life and preached it for a number of years. It still amazes me though when I look back and realize that I used to be one. It also amazes me how the scriptures are manipulated to justify your doctrine.

Thanks for all of your input. It will be helpful in what I'm doing.

Weird. My husband says almost exactly the same thing about being raised as a trinitarian preacher's kid.