Pastor's problems

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Kutless

I think we need to be extremely cautious here when placing the role of a pastor to such a lofty position. Unfortunately I think this is what we do in many cases.

Unfortunately, you are right. But the "lofty" position is man's position derived from carnally thinking people. You will always have this from both perspectives. Preachers who think they are above and saints who place preachers above.

When you have a true biblical church with people who have submitted hearts to God and His Word then each will understand the positions and responsibilities of authority, which deals more with servant hood than master hood.

Even after only being mentioned once in the Bible it is tauted as the highest position in the church. When in scripture we see its just one of the 5-fold ministry (another unbiblical term).

Well the "5-fold" is mentioned more than once in the NT, there are many references to the "positions" of the five fold and it does carry with it the highest realm of authority within God's structure under Himself as Lord and King and His Word, which is equivalent with His name.

On the flip side of that, most use the terms incorrectly. We call the person who leads a ministry as a "Pastor" and a person who travels and preaches an "Evangelist," etc. This is incorrect.

These are "giftings" not positions. Many so called "Pastors" are not even called, they have just pursued a career in ministry. Call them "Pastor" if you want, but that doesn't make them one.

Of those who are called and lead a church some actually stand in the office of a Pastor, some the office of an Apostle, some an office of a Prophet, etc. That's Ephesians 4 states, "and he gave some..., and some..., and some..."

Because we have failed to recognize the gift that is in our lives we have failed to have drawn from the anointing that God has given to us to mature us so that we can effectively do the work of the ministry.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Often the position is (mistakenly) compared to that of the prophets and Kings of ancient Israel. This is where the "touch not my anointed" is always taken so horribly out of context.

I totally agree with you that the scripture about "touch not my anointed" is taken out of context, in fact I would say that it applies more to those in the ministry than those who are not in the ministries.

Too many of those in positions of ministry have adversely touched God's children and will stand in judgment for it.

However, you also said:

ften the position is (mistakenly) compared to that of the prophets and Kings of ancient Israel

This is a Kingdom and it is about "kings" and "priests." Notice the following:

1 Pet 2:9
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (KJV)

Rev 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (KJV)

In Revelations the only two things described that Jesus has made us is either a king or a priest, which is a study in itself. Within the Priestly anointing there are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers.

[Kutless]

Glory Seeker, I agree with the points you have made for the most part.

In looking at Luke 22:25 "lordship over them" translated in greek as jurisdiction. And then Jesus saying...."But ye shall not be so"

Also I believe "pastor" is only translated once as "pastor" the rest it is sheppard. Is there not signifigance to where it was listed as pastor?

What do you consider the role of a sheppard?

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Unfortunately, you are right. But the "lofty" position is man's position derived from carnally thinking people. You will always have this from both perspectives. Preachers who think they are above and saints who place preachers above.

When you have a true biblical church with people who have submitted hearts to God and His Word then each will understand the positions and responsibilities of authority, which deals more with servant hood than master hood.




Well the "5-fold" is mentioned more than once in the NT, there are many references to the "positions" of the five fold and it does carry with it the highest realm of authority within God's structure under Himself as Lord and King and His Word, which is equivalent with His name.

On the flip side of that, most use the terms incorrectly. We call the person who leads a ministry as a "Pastor" and a person who travels and preaches an "Evangelist," etc. This is incorrect.

These are "giftings" not positions. Many so called "Pastors" are not even called, they have just pursued a career in ministry. Call them "Pastor" if you want, but that doesn't make them one.

Of those who are called and lead a church some actually stand in the office of a Pastor, some the office of an Apostle, some an office of a Prophet, etc. That's Ephesians 4 states, "and he gave some..., and some..., and some..."

Because we have failed to recognize the gift that is in our lives we have failed to have drawn from the anointing that God has given to us to mature us so that we can effectively do the work of the ministry.

one more thing are you saying here that scripture shows the pastor as the highest realm of authority or the 5-fold as a whole?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Kutless

one more thing are you saying here that scripture shows the pastor as the highest realm of authority or the 5-fold as a whole?

I see the office of the Pastor as part of the 5-fold. I don't view one as higher than another. Furthermore, I believe that those who are in the 5-fold should also be submitted to another in the 5-fold. I don't believe in lone rangers.

Too many in ministry think that they are it and it has hurt them. We are a body, we are all connected and are to all be submitted one to another.

So for a specific answer to your question I am referring to the 5-fold as a whole.

The "Pastor" of our church really functions in more of the office of an Apostle. His "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of an Apostle. That persons "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of a Prophet. His "Pastor" operates more in the office of a "Teacher"

Titles means nothing, gifts mean everything.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I see the office of the Pastor as part of the 5-fold. I don't view one as higher than another. Furthermore, I believe that those who are in the 5-fold should also be submitted to another in the 5-fold. I don't believe in lone rangers.

Too many in ministry think that they are it and it has hurt them. We are a body, we are all connected and are to all be submitted one to another.

So for a specific answer to your question I am referring to the 5-fold as a whole.

The "Pastor" of our church really functions in more of the office of an Apostle. His "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of an Apostle. That persons "Pastor" who is also called pastor operates more in the office of a Prophet. His "Pastor" operates more in the office of a "Teacher"

Titles means nothing, gifts mean everything.

why did Jesus say "Ye shall not be so" in Luke?

[Kutless]

Is there any assembly that you know of where the pastor is not elevated to the highest authoritative position? And is that scriptural?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Is there any assembly that you know of where the pastor is not elevated to the highest authoritative position? And is that scriptural?

Sure, many of the house church structures make everyone equal. There is a church just across the street from I am right now and there is no such thing as a full time pastor. The have a ministry staff of about 10 and they are all just one of the guys.

Everyone calls the Pastor by his first name, Darren.

I keep saying the same thing, but I think that it is key. It's not the title, it's the gift.

My Pastor's name is Ken. If he is "Ken" to me, than all that I will draw out of him is from the natural. However, if he is "pastor" to me (I'm not talking about names and titles I am talking about position) then I can draw on his ministry gift and God will speak through him to me.

When you focus on the person you are going to find faults, when you focus on the gifting you can move past personalities and find the anointing that will set you free - that's the position of authority.

A true Pastor is going to help you be successful, not tell you what to do. That's carnal authority, spiritual authority is liberating.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Glory Seeker, I agree with the points you have made for the most part.

In looking at Luke 22:25 "lordship over them" translated in greek as jurisdiction. And then Jesus saying...."But ye shall not be so"

Also I believe "pastor" is only translated once as "pastor" the rest it is sheppard. Is there not signifigance to where it was listed as pastor?

What do you consider the role of a sheppard?

I mentioned it in one of the other posts but "lordship" as mentioned in this scripture is man's (carnal) authority. Phil 2:12 tells us that we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

It is not man's responsibility to demand obedience. Demanded obedience is not obedience at all. God does not force us to be obedient who does a "Pastor" or anyone else think they are to force obedience.

We serve God willingly out of a pure heart. Therefore, the gift of a Shepherd is to lead, feed, and correct based on the Word of God. Correction is far different then demanding compliance.

If I start doing wrong and my Pastor does not bring biblical correction to me then he will stand responsible for that. If I do wrong and he brings biblical correction to me and I don't listen then he is free.

In the end I have the responsibility of my life and salvation, but he has a gift that brings the anointing into my life in greater degrees.

God will love you all the way to hell and so should Pastors. They are to lead not push. Those who are always trying to push are either totally insecure in their own calling or are not called in the first place.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I totally agree with you that the scripture about "touch not my anointed" is taken out of context, in fact I would say that it applies more to those in the ministry than those who are not in the ministries.

Too many of those in positions of ministry have adversely touched God's children and will stand in judgment for it.

I think the idea of "the ministry" to begin with is sadly misused by most of Christiandom and is a left over of the Catholic idea of clergy/laity teaching...

I don't believe there is a special class within the church of the haves and have nots....We are ALL called. We are ALL given gifts. We are ALL a kingdom of priests. We are ALL given the Spirit of God and thus "you shall receive power....and you shall be witnesses unto me".

WE are all called to pray for one another...not just a special class of minsters within the body of Christ. We are ALL called to serve. Thus we are ALL the anointed of God. We may not all be anointed to do the same exact work, but if you have the Spirit of God you have the anointing of God on you.