Remitted on the Cross or not?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I don't believe that a truly regenerated person will remain in their sins and that saved will show evidence of salvation. I don't believe in the thinking that, "I'm saved so I can live the way I want", like many of the baptists do.

I understand thanks.

[Adino]

My Catholic friend, Steve, said:

Adino since our sins were remitted at Calvary by His blood (and I agree) what further remission does one obtain by faith and repentance?

I could answer this way, Steve:

No further remission of the sins Christ took to the Cross is obtained by faith in repentance. God forgave them... period. We need simply to accept the forgiveness granted on the Cross by trusting that we have been forgiven and reconciled to God. We need simply to believe/trust the Gospel. The Gospel proclaims the Good News of this reconciliation.

2Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Though man has been reconciled he remains spiritually dead in unbelief/rejection until he accepts the testimony of God concerning Christ. Though God forgave/remitted sin on the Cross there is still a sin which condemns the world and keeps them spiritually dead and separated from God. The sin preventing life and fellowship with God is unbelief. The world is to be reproved of sin not because of the sin remitted on the Cross, Christ said the world is reproved of sin because "they believe not on me" (John 16:8-9). The command is to believe the Gospel.

Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30:10-15 in Romans 10:4-10 and identifies the resurrected Christ as the commandment to be believed for salvation (also 1John 3:23). Man is given a choice between life or death, good or evil. A choice to accept or reject the testimony of God and to set to seal that God is true (John 3:33). Those who believe in their heart that God has raised Christ from the dead shall be saved/ shall have life because it is in the acceptance of the resurrected Savior that man acknowledges the forgiveness of the Cross, receives the testimony of God (1John 5:10-13), receives a good conscience toward God (Acts 15:9), and is granted the Spirit of life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

The person who rests in the finished work of the Cross can draw near unto God "with a true heart in full assurance of faith" having his heart "sprinkled (cleansed) from an evil conscience" (Hebrews 10:16-22). Such a man is to be baptized. One must first have faith in the reconciling work of the Cross in order to be baptized. Scripture shows that baptism is the response of the man who already has a good conscience toward God (1Peter 3:21). Only those who already trust that they have been forgiven are to be baptized. The man who has full assurance of faith in the forgiveness of the Cross and has a clean conscience reckons himself as having been crucified with Christ, dead to sin, and alive unto God. These spiritual realities are fully dramatized in the act of baptism which stands as a picture or "likeness" of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ (Romans 6:3).

Does the teaching of faith only make man his own savior and declare disbelief in the finished work of Calvary?

Nope, sola fide does not teach a disbelief in the finished work of Calvary as does the doctrine of baptismal sin remission.

Two can play at this word game.

Not a game to me.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

My Catholic friend, Steve, said:

I could answer this way, Steve:

No further remission of the sins Christ took to the Cross is obtained by faith in repentance. God forgave them... period. We need simply to accept the forgiveness granted on the Cross by trusting that we have been forgiven and reconciled to God. We need simply to believe/trust the Gospel. The Gospel proclaims the Good News of this reconciliation.

2Corinthians 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Though man has been reconciled he remains spiritually dead in unbelief/rejection until he accepts the testimony of God concerning Christ. Though God forgave/remitted sin on the Cross there is still a sin which condemns the world and keeps them spiritually dead and separated from God. The sin preventing life and fellowship with God is unbelief. The world is to be reproved of sin not because of the sin remitted on the Cross, Christ said the world is reproved of sin because "they believe not on me" (John 16:8-9). The command is to believe the Gospel.

Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30:10-15 in Romans 10:4-10 and identifies the resurrected Christ as the commandment to be believed for salvation (also 1John 3:23). Man is given a choice between life or death, good or evil. A choice to accept or reject the testimony of God and to set to seal that God is true (John 3:33). Those who believe in their heart that God has raised Christ from the dead shall be saved/ shall have life because it is in the acceptance of the resurrected Savior that man acknowledges the forgiveness of the Cross, receives the testimony of God (1John 5:10-13), receives a good conscience toward God (Acts 15:9), and is granted the Spirit of life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

The person who rests in the finished work of the Cross can draw near unto God "with a true heart in full assurance of faith" having his heart "sprinkled (cleansed) from an evil conscience" (Hebrews 10:16-22). Such a man is to be baptized. One must first have faith in the reconciling work of the Cross in order to be baptized. Scripture shows that baptism is the response of the man who already has a good conscience toward God (1Peter 3:21). Only those who already trust that they have been forgiven are to be baptized. The man who has full assurance of faith in the forgiveness of the Cross and has a clean conscience reckons himself as having been crucified with Christ, dead to sin, and alive unto God. These spiritual realities are fully dramatized in the act of baptism which stands as a picture or "likeness" of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ (Romans 6:3).



Nope, sola fide does not teach a disbelief in the finished work of Calvary as does the doctrine of baptismal sin remission.

Not a game to me.

Adino your 'argument' stands and falls on the same premise. As you correctly stated our sins were forgiven and remitted at Calvary through Christ offering.
But the question that deserves a correct answer that YOU did not give was how does man experience personally this forgiven and remission of sins? Are they obtained WITHOUT any cooperation from the penitent? You do not believe they are and neither do I. In your view 'faith alone' WITHOUT obedience to the gospel will confer this upon the penitent. However the Bible teaches faith is doing what the gospel commands in order to have forgiveness and remission of sins confered on someone. Repentance and baptism in Jesus Name is where sinful man identifies with the gospel and has his sins forgiven and remitted BECAUSE of the finished work of Calvary.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I understand thanks.

Our charismatic Pastor Jeff Butler preached on the Covenant and commandment of Baptism.

He preached from Acts 2:37-38.

Not bad for a one stepper hey!

[OneAccord]

Sins are remitted by the Work accomplished on the Cross.

[Adino]

Steve wrote: But the question that deserves a correct answer that YOU did not give was how does man experience personally this forgiven and remission of sins?

I did answer..... by faith alone. Simply accept it. The heart returns to God through faith.

Consider a hypothetical: Steve, you've gone off driving while on a drunken binge and crossed over into the lane of an oncoming Trailblazer killing a mother and her two daughters. It turns out they were dear friends of yours...... my family, whom I love with all my heart. This was, of course, devastating to me. You realize your irresponsible wrong and your life is destroyed from that day forward. We go separate ways. Years go by and you end up in some gutter destitute and in a wretched pitiful drunken stoop wishing that you could be released from the heaviness of heart brought on by your enormous guilt. You find it in yourself to one day return to me and stand before me in your wretched state. I look at you and say, "Friend, where have you been so long? It's been such a long time... too many years. I miss you and have often worried about your condition. I realize you hurt me badly but I have forgiven you long ago for your sin. Didn't you receive word of my forgiveness? I've been yearning for your return because I truly miss our fellowship. I have forgiven you, friend. Please let me buy you dinner and we'll enjoy a fellowship we once had."

How do you receive my forgiveness? How is your heart released from its pain, but by simply trusting my word that I have indeed forgiven you?

In this hypothetical, I forgave you long before you came to the knowledge of my forgiveness. I tried to get word to you but with no response. Had I died before you came to the knowledge of my forgiveness the only thing that would save you would be hearing that I had forgiven you and had wished for your return. Again, how do you receive that forgiveness but by simply trusting that I had truly forgiven you and by resting in the knowledge of our reconciliation? How is your conscience healed but by faith alone?

Are they obtained WITHOUT any cooperation from the penitent?

It is received by faith alone. By simply trusting in the forgiveness of God. You do nothing but accept it. You accept what God has given.

In your view 'faith alone' WITHOUT obedience to the gospel will confer this upon the penitent.

For years now, I've been telling you that having faith, is, in and of itself, obedience to the Gospel. Simply trust the Good News of our reconciliation.

However the Bible teaches faith is doing what the gospel commands in order to have forgiveness and remission of sins confered on someone. Repentance and baptism in Jesus Name is where sinful man identifies with the gospel and has his sins forgiven and remitted BECAUSE of the finished work of Calvary.

Trust the word of his reconciliation. Those who trust in the word of his reconciliation are granted eternal life. Having heard they trusted, having trusted they were sealed with the Spirit of life (Ephesians 1:13). He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

I did answer..... by faith alone. Simply accept it. The heart returns to God through faith.

Consider a hypothetical: Steve, you've gone off driving while on a drunken binge and crossed over into the lane of an oncoming Trailblazer killing a mother and her two daughters. It turns out they were dear friends of yours...... my family, whom I love with all my heart. This was, of course, devastating to me. You realize your irresponsible wrong and your life is destroyed from that day forward. We go separate ways. Years go by and you end up in some gutter destitute and in a wretched pitiful drunken stoop wishing that you could be released from the heaviness of heart brought on by your enormous guilt. You find it in yourself to one day return to me and stand before me in your wretched state. I look at you and say, "Friend, where have you been so long? It's been such a long time... too many years. I miss you and have often worried about your condition. I realize you hurt me badly but I have forgiven you long ago for your sin. Didn't you receive word of my forgiveness? I've been yearning for your return because I truly miss our fellowship. I have forgiven you, friend. Please let me buy you dinner and we'll enjoy a fellowship we once had."

How do you receive my forgiveness? How is your heart released from its pain, but by simply trusting my word that I have indeed forgiven you?

In this hypothetical, I forgave you long before you came to the knowledge of my forgiveness. I tried to get word to you but with no response. Had I died before you came to the knowledge of my forgiveness the only thing that would save you would be hearing that I had forgiven you and had wished for your return. Again, how do you receive that forgiveness but by simply trusting that I had truly forgiven you and by resting in the knowledge of our reconciliation? How is your conscience healed but by faith alone?

It is received by faith alone. By simply trusting in the forgiveness of God. You do nothing but accept it. You accept what God has given.

For years now, I've been telling you that having faith, is, in and of itself, obedience to the Gospel. Simply trust the Good News of our reconciliation.

Trust the word of his reconciliation. Those who trust in the word of his reconciliation are granted eternal life. Having heard they trusted, having trusted they were sealed with the Spirit of life (Ephesians 1:13). He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

Adino this is your confusion in that you think mental assent is Biblical faith. Biblical faith is ACTING on what God commands. For example it was not enough to BELIEVE the blood on the door post would spare your family that Passover night Bible faith was APPLYING the blood to the door post. Rahab believing was proven by the scarlet thread she place out her window. Naaman's faith was dipping in the Jordan ACCORDING to the saying of the man of God.
And NT saving faith in the shed blood is obeying Acts 2:38 and NOTHING less.
Folks who have not obeyed Acts 2:38 have NOT been to Calvary.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino this is your confusion in that you think mental assent is Biblical faith.

I've also told you for the past 10 years that faith is more than mere mental assent. This is a mistake David Bernard has made in his writings on the subject. Those who hold to justification by faith alone understand that faith = knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + TRUST (fiducia). To say the position speaks of mere mental assent declares an ignorance of the terminology. The heart of knowledge and assent must convert to TRUST in the object of faith.

Biblical faith is ACTING on what God commands.

Biblical faith prompts action. It is BY faith those in Hebrews 11 acted. It is the invisible internal faith which engenders the action. The invisible conversion of the heart to faith in God denotes the heart reborn. The heart made regenerate can only then engender regenerate action. We are created unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). It is extremely important to realize we are first newly created in order to engender the good works. God newly creates us and causes/enables us to walk in his ways (Ezekiel 36:27).

God bless, Bro.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

I've also told you for the past 10 years that faith is more than mere mental assent. This is a mistake David Bernard has made in his writings on the subject. Those who hold to justification by faith alone understand that faith = knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + TRUST (fiducia). To say the position speaks of mere mental assent declares an ignorance of the terminology. The heart of knowledge and assent must convert to TRUST in the object of faith.

Biblical faith prompts action. It is BY faith those in Hebrews 11 acted. It is the invisible internal faith which engenders the action. The invisible conversion of the heart to faith in God denotes the heart reborn. The heart made regenerate can only then engender regenerate action. We are created unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). It is extremely important to realize we are first newly created in order to engender the good works. God newly creates us and causes/enables us to walk in his ways (Ezekiel 36:27).

God bless, Bro.

Now Adino your calender is faulty as your theology NOT 10 years. However we have been fussing for a season. Bible faith is ACTIVE thus obedience. It is YOU that divorces faith from it's application NOT I. YOU see the obedience of faith as works thus making a division the scripture does NOT make. Obeying the gospel is NOT good works but faith acting on what is believed and required. Obeying Acts 2:38 is NOT good works but the obedience of faith.

[Adino]

I thought you were part of the initial group I began discussion with way back before Jim Yohe's site. It's possible this is when I was declaring the Gospel to atheists, wiccans, and agnostics on another theological board. Either way, yes, it has been a while.

Steve, what prompts your act of faith?