Political: Moderate, Centrist, and Progressive Thread

[LordChocolate]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Furthermore, to suggest that abortion is a humane option in some cases where the child that lives may be poor, neglected or abused is ridiculous. Shall we now begin exterminating children born into uneducated, poor families, where neglect and abuse are likely to occur? Murdering children is NEVER humane, nor is it EVER necessary. It is never moral, it is always criminal, whether our government has laws that allow it or not, and it should never be endorsed or supported by any Christian.

In the last election, I thoroughly appreciated it when my pastor stated the following: "Christians should vote on principle; not according to their pocketbook."

AMAN PREACH IT SISTA!!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Walkbyfaith7

Here in Oregon, my 15 year old daughter can have an abortion without parental consent- they don't even have to tell us!

Do you know who voted this in? Liberals, progressive types!

And guess what? You have to be 18 to watch a rated R movie!

Do you think a 15 year old has the cognitive and psychological maturity to be able to determine the impact of her one decision could affect the rest of her life and that she is taking another human being's life?

Chris- this is why most people who have a heart and are faithful to Jesus will never become liberal or 'progressive', (a nice way to describe someone who puts down their conservative values and puts on liberal ones).

I hope nobody minds me jumping in here. Let's look at this logically and prayerfully. First, I don't believe it's right to ever choose abortion, but this world being fallen as it is women do choose abortion. Now, this issue about a 15 year old being able to get an abortion is the stuff politicians love and the mindlessly biased never really evaluate. On the surface it looks like it is saying, "Hey, 15 year old girls can just have an abortion without parental consent." But all too often that's not the reason people vote against parental notification laws. Typically it's because they fear that they would have to notify the father or guardian of the girl...how may even be the abuser. This potentially places a young girl in danger. So often additional measures allowing for a doctor's notification or the notification of a significant adult in the child's life. But often if the fine print of the actual law is read in relation to current law and statute what evolves is an intensive that erects road blocks along the way...it also increases legal liabilities on the system. Therefore many vote against this measures to protect the young girl and allow the abortion without putting legal obstacles in her way, places the resonsiblity in the hands of the court or civil authority, or the need to notify a potentially abusive parent or guardian. So they simply vote to allow her to have the abortion. In all honesty, any REAL parent will know where their child is at all times and will periodically review their child's medical records. And then there is the political fall out. What politician is going to back up a parental notification law that may notify an abusive parent? Politically speaking, and I know this is sad, but politicians would rather place the responsibility of knowing what a child is doing on the parent. Parents the secret to keeping your 15 year old daughter from getting an abortion is...to PARENT your children. If you properly parent she will not get pregnant. If you properly parent she will not have the opportunity to seek an abortion without your knowledge. Parental notification or not the responsibility is on the parent.

And then I have to address the comparison with allowing a 15 year old to watch a rated R movie. First, most parents will not beat their child half to death or kill them for watching a rated R movie. The abortion issue is far more serious and has far more serious implications.

But I agree, any parent would want to be notified. I WOULD. But at the same time many leary of having a law in which a potentially violent and abusive parent is notified by edict of the government. It's a difficult situation. Again the solution is in the home not in legislation. Parent your kids properly and odds are you'll never have to worry about this issue facing your family.

So as you can see there are two sides of every issue. No one relishes the idea of 15 year olds choosing an abortion...but often there are deep complexities in regards to the issue and neither side is evil, both sides have serious concerns. Both sides even have advocates. There was a woman who was repeatedly abused by her father who didn't turn to authorities until she left home. She had become pregnant and had an abortion. Had there been a law requiring that her parents be notified she said she most likely would have been too afraid to seek an abortion. She would have tried to do it herself in her bathroom. If her father found out either way she feared for her life. These women often explain their case with tears and pleading. They aren't proud to have had an abortion but they seriously fear what could happen to many abused girls if parental notification laws were in place.

Interestingly though, I see a lot of people wanting more and more governemnt to control some of the most difficult issues of people's private lives...yet government isn't the solution. Living right is. Proper parenting is. We as individuals have to be responsible for ourselves. It's not the government's job to require that you be notified of what your kids do. It's your responsiblity to be involved enough to know what your kids are doing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sister Truth Seeker

PRO CHOICE IS PRO ABORTION....GOOD GRIEF HOW CAN YOU BE SO DECIEVED*** ******************

Do you believe that atheistic writings should be banned?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Christopher, you seem like a highly intelligent person. Your post shows you don't know beans about how a health care system socialized in America would work. If you want Canadian Healthcare, move to Canada. No need to elect a man who made a living extorting drug companies and driving up costs (John Edwards).

I'm not for universal health care, BUT, since you claim you know how it would work here in the ol' USA I'm interested. One thing about the Universal Health Insurance notion that does interest me is the stimulation of competition. Christopher is right. If all Americans were insured the cost of health care would go down because hospitals and doctors would actually receive payment for so many of the bills that presently go unpaid. And if a universal health insurance system were optional it would force private insurance to compete with the system, thereby bringing insurance costs down. That's a no brainer. That's market forces of competition at work. With health care costs down insurance would have to become affordable to compete with the national system or go out of business. It's really an interesting idea. But the libertarian in me is hesitant to embrace the idea of a universal health insurance system right now.

The healthcare companies did not count on a hospital charging $56 for a bottle of eyedrops, or $5 to dispense an aspirin tablet. I don't care for large executives getting Billion US Dollar bonuses while a $7 clerk determines my health "benefits" either. Sponsored by the Government, we would see the calls eventually outsourced and not only do you have 2 hr phone waiting, you then get someone you cannot understand, and who can understand you less pushing a button to deny your case without any means of appeal.

Not necessarily true.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I hope nobody minds me jumping in here. Let's look at this logically and prayerfully. First, I don't believe it's right to ever choose abortion, but this world being fallen as it is women do choose abortion. Now, this issue about a 15 year old being able to get an abortion is the stuff politicians love and the mindlessly biased never really evaluate. On the surface it looks like it is saying, "Hey, 15 year old girls can just have an abortion without parental consent." But all too often that's not the reason people vote against parental notification laws. Typically it's because they fear that they would have to notify the father or guardian of the girl...how may even be the abuser. This potentially places a young girl in danger. So often additional measures allowing for a doctor's notification or the notification of a significant adult in the child's life. But often if the fine print of the actual law is read in relation to current law and statute what evolves is an intensive that erects road blocks along the way...it also increases legal liabilities on the system. Therefore many vote against this measures to protect the young girl and allow the abortion without putting legal obstacles in her way, places the resonsiblity in the hands of the court or civil authority, or the need to notify a potentially abusive parent or guardian. So they simply vote to allow her to have the abortion. In all honesty, any REAL parent will know where their child is at all times and will periodically review their child's medical records. And then there is the political fall out. What politician is going to back up a parental notification law that may notify an abusive parent? Politically speaking, and I know this is sad, but politicians would rather place the responsibility of knowing what a child is doing on the parent. Parents the secret to keeping your 15 year old daughter from getting an abortion is...to PARENT your children. If you properly parent she will not get pregnant. If you properly parent she will not have the opportunity to seek an abortion without your knowledge. Parental notification or not the responsibility is on the parent.

And then I have to address the comparison with allowing a 15 year old to watch a rated R movie. First, most parents will not beat their child half to death or kill them for watching a rated R movie. The abortion issue is far more serious and has far more serious implications.

But I agree, any parent would want to be notified. I WOULD. But at the same time many leary of having a law in which a potentially violent and abusive parent is notified by edict of the government. It's a difficult situation. Again the solution is in the home not in legislation. Parent your kids properly and odds are you'll never have to worry about this issue facing your family.

So as you can see there are two sides of every issue. No one relishes the idea of 15 year olds choosing an abortion...but often there are deep complexities in regards to the issue and neither side is evil, both sides have serious concerns. Both sides even have advocates. There was a woman who was repeatedly abused by her father who didn't turn to authorities until she left home. She had become pregnant and had an abortion. Had there been a law requiring that her parents be notified she said she most likely would have been too afraid to seek an abortion. She would have tried to do it herself in her bathroom. If her father found out either way she feared for her life. These women often explain their case with tears and pleading. They aren't proud to have had an abortion but they seriously fear what could happen to many abused girls if parental notification laws were in place.

Interestingly though, I see a lot of people wanting more and more governemnt to control some of the most difficult issues of people's private lives...yet government isn't the solution. Living right is. Proper parenting is. We as individuals have to be responsible for ourselves. It's not the government's job to require that you be notified of what your kids do. It's your responsiblity to be involved enough to know what your kids are doing.

I think you are speaking about the minority here. I am talking about the average 15 year old girl here. Not the minority messed situation you seem to think is common.

What rights do 15 years old have? They are not old or mature enough for a rated R movie. They can not receive anything controversial from our school system or take a FIELD TRIP without parental consent.

They can not smoke. They can not drink. They can not fight for our country. They can not vote for our president. 15 year olds can't have a license and drive on their own in my state. They can not get married. They can not sign anything on their own.

But you think they should be able to go to a clinic and get an abortion?

Their brains are not fully developed
Their mental health is very unstable

Sorry but it won't get my vote. This vote was NOT up to politicians by the way. It was up to the people and it barely passed because the majority of this state comprises of an evil liberal city called Portland. If the Lord got rid of Portland, it would have passed 95 percent.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you believe that atheistic writings should be banned?

Do you believe that things that offend sensibilities are in any way comparable to actions which threaten, harm or end human life?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Interestingly though, I see a lot of people wanting more and more governemnt to control some of the most difficult issues of people's private lives...yet government isn't the solution. Living right is. Proper parenting is. We as individuals have to be responsible for ourselves. It's not the government's job to require that you be notified of what your kids do. It's your responsiblity to be involved enough to know what your kids are doing.

Exactly my point- the government is controlling my parental rights. I don't want them to control my right as a parent. If my child gets pregnant at 15, (I have two daughters by the way) my wife, I and her will take care of this situation. She is in no way mature enough, nor physically development enough to make this decision on her own.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I understand that abortion is a complicated matter for some people, and I also understand that even when laws are passed, they may not be adequately carried out. HOWEVER, I still cannot morally place a vote for someone who openly supports abortion by their own voting practice, such as refusing to BAN particularly heinous procedures like the partial-birth abortion.

When you say, "openly supports abortion", are you talking about politicians that believe abortion is a good thing and say, "Hey everybody, let's all go get abortions!", or are you talking about a politician that just believes that abortion isn't an issue government can or should address and that women should maintain the right to be morally responsible about the issue individually?

Pornography is a self-imposed immorality that only harms the adult participant, and hopefully no one else, unless they are viewing pornography that is made up of minors or that involves criminal acts. That is not even comparable to abortion, which terminates an innocent life.

Actually pornography is very evil. Those who film these things tyically find women who are willing to do the movies because these women are on drugs and need money to support their drug habbit. They are recorded and the movie is distributed so others can watch. It's sexual slavery and abuse at it's most henious. Also a number of abortions are no doubt the result of some of this pornographic encounters. So in a way pornography may have contributed to the deaths of a number of the unborn. Also it contributes to a highly sexualized society in which more unmarried people are having sex, a major factor in regards to abortion. So I see the issue of pornography just is vile as abortion. It may not be actual murder, but it contributes to the culture of death and is in the realm of sexual slavery.

I don't believe that activism helps reduce abortion; I believe that voting in strong leaders who will pass strong laws is what will reduce abortion. Quite frankly, I do not CARE if someone has to resort to a back-alley abortion if abortions were illegal. That is their choice to break the law, and unnecessary in this present day where it is relatively easy to give a child up for adoption.

Actually I think the facts are contrary to what you're saying. Today the abortion rate in the United States is lower than it was when it was illegal. In the late 90's abortion rates in the US hit a 30 year all time low. And that's in the wake of more liberal abortion laws. Activism does work. As we speak up against the moral evil of abortion more and more women choose life even if abortion is legal.

As for back alley abortions, most of that stuff was exaggerated and wasn't happening as often as it was proposed.

And yes, to address the hypothetical, IF abortion were a crime, then women who commit that crime should be prosecuted, along with the medical staff who facilitates it. Obviously that will never happen, but it was mentioned as if it is a crime that shouldn't or can't really be prosecuted, and I wholeheartedly disagree.

What should be the penalty for an abortion? A fine? Loss of license? Jail? I'm courious because it will set a legal standard for the value of life. If it's just a fine and maybe jail time life is reduced to the value of outstanding parking tickets. Only outright prosecution for MURDER will provide legal justice. Since there isn't a statute of limitations on murder, even women who are walking around today who have procured abortions should be prosecuted, even if they're attending church and now living Christian lives.

This is why so many believe government isn't the solution. Addressing abortion with bans and laws is only a shallow cosmetic fix that relieves the conscience but doesn't resolve the issue. So many who are liberal or liberatarian opt to believe that the ultimate responsiblity should be placed with the individual. Let that individual choose what they will do as an individual and answer to it before Almighty God. As a Libertarian, I just don't want my tax dollars going for it. They choose it on their own, they pay for it on their own.

When it comes to whether a person should be allowed to take another human life, then YES, the government should have a say-so. Criminal acts should be prevented and prosecuted, and murder is certainly a criminal act. It is a crying shame that not only is murder being allowed and supported in this country, but the pro-abortion rhetoric is so pervasive that even Christians have bought into the idea that abortion isn't murder, that it isn't really criminal, that it may not be immoral in all cases, and that the women who choose such action are to be sympathized with in any manner.

I know a pastor's wife who before they were saved had an abortion. If abortion is legally addressed as murder, which would be the only moral legal response, then she would have to face charges for murder. Remember, murder has no statute of limitations. If it was done 80 years ago it doesn't matter, a woman should be prosecuted. If one says they are prolife and disagrees...they're obviously not as prolife as they claim to be. However, again, this is why many are realizing that government and laws aren't capable of addressing this issue. It's a heneous moral act that is murderous...but it's so complex government would only make it worse. Thank about it this way...government waged a war on poverty and we have more poverty. Government waged a war on illiteracy and we have more illiteracy, government waged a war on drugs and we have more drugs. Government waged a war on terror and we have more terror. Do you really want the government to wage a war on abortion? Trust me...if the government get's involved it will only make matters worse.

To be pro-choice is to be pro-abortion, because if you believe it is alright for a woman to choose whether her child can live or die, then you essentially believe it is alright for a person to choose murder without personal consequence.

I believe that government involvement in the issue of abortion only makes issues worse. I believe that abortion is a terrible crime against humanity, a grave sin in the eyes of God, an abomination. But I also believe that the responsiblity to choose life should lay in the hands of individual women. They alone know if an abortion is necessary for medical reasons or if it is the result of rape and they are feeling suicidal. And those individual women will have to stand before God and answer for their choice and be judged by a God who knows all things and judges righteously. For this opinion many call me "ProChoice" though I believe that the only right choice is life. But I'm definately not proabortion. I resent the very notion that I am. I would never advise a woman to have an abortion and I teach that it is a grave sin against God. I just think government is incapable of properly addressing the issue by satisifying the moral demands that it brings to the table.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Walkbyfaith7

Exactly my point- the government is controlling my parental rights. I don't want them to control my right as a parent. If my child gets pregnant at 15, (I have two daughters by the way) my wife, I and her will take care of this situation. She is in no way mature enough, nor physically development enough to make this decision on her own.

It is your resonsibility to control your daughter's sexual behaviors. If one of your daughters gets pregnant, it's your responsibility to know not the government's to inform you. It's your responsibility to know where your child is at at all times and in all circumstances. It's not the government's job to inform you as to where your child is or what she's done.

You have to parent.

So many parents think they can allow their daughters to play with boys and be in compromising situations while they stay at home and watch tv all night. Then these parents think it's the government's job to call them and interupt their favorite tv show if their daughter goes to have an abortion. That lame parent should have known where their daughter was in the first place! If parents can't parent that's a domestic issue not a political one.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Walkbyfaith7

I think you are speaking about the minority here. I am talking about the average 15 year old girl here. Not the minority messed situation you seem to think is common.

It may not be "common" but it's more common that it should be. And even if it were one girl it's an unacceptable outcome.

What rights do 15 years old have? They are not old or mature enough for a rated R movie. They can not receive anything controversial from our school system or take a FIELD TRIP without parental consent.

You have to parent. You have to know what your daughter is doing and who she's doing it with. It's not the government's job to use my tax dollars to babysit American daughters because their parents can't keep tabs on them.

They can not smoke. They can not drink. They can not fight for our country. They can not vote for our president. 15 year olds can't have a license and drive on their own in my state. They can not get married. They can not sign anything on their own.

This issue is more complex than any of those issues. You and I both know that.

But you think they should be able to go to a clinic and get an abortion?

No. I think it's their parent's responsibility to keep them from getting pregnant in the first place. And if allowed to become pregnant it's their parent's responsibility to know where they are and if they are even going to a clinic.

Their brains are not fully developed
Their mental health is very unstable

Same can be said for most adults. LOL

Sorry but it won't get my vote. This vote was NOT up to politicians by the way. It was up to the people and it barely passed because the majority of this state comprises of an evil liberal city called Portland. If the Lord got rid of Portland, it would have passed 95 percent.

Oh the evil peole who don't think like you! lol

As you can see...there isn't a political answer. Something like this shouldn't even be up for a vote.