For those that left the UPC...

[ILG]

Originally Posted by GraceAmazing

I understand where you are coming from to a point...I pray that God gives you complete "healing"...hugs!

Thanks, GA. I pray for your healing too!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ILG

It is great to hear your positive testimony.

I wasn't raised in the UPC and was there for 19 years. I felt the experience was very negative. It will take me many years before I could go to campmeeting and enjoy it. I hope to sometime in my lifetime though, but that time is definately not now. I have been out five years and may need another 15.

I hear you my friend. I've been out for close to 20 now and I certainly couldn't have celebrated for all of those years. I also happened to hit camp meeting very lucky. The evangelist preached a very grace oriented message. There is a real strain of grace in some pockets of the UPC.

By the way, I read your quote from Barbara Brown Taylor. How are you familiar with her. I came across a sermon she did on the Prodigal Son that blew me away. What a writer and preacher.

[truthseeker3139]

You know all those people that say "first the standards, then the doctrine"? In most cases, truer words have never been spoken.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by truthseeker3139

You know all those people that say "first the standards, then the doctrine"? In most cases, truer words have never been spoken.

I would strongly disagree with this assertion. Standards are obviously not standardized. It is possible to be in the UPC and have various practices regarding standards. For those of us who are males, the standard issue was not very oppressive. I can't speak for everyone, but let me be clear that the reason I left is for soteriological reasons only (the doctrine of salvation.) Once one sees the clear New Testament teaching and the conrnerstone of the Protestant reformation is that salvation is by grace through faith alone in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, the theology and practices of UPC begin to fall like dominos. The exclusive nature of the group and the informal practice of "shunning" are some of my greatest concerns.

[Falla39]

Man's response to God's Grace, through faith and obedience is what brings salvation.

Not Grace + 0 = Salvation! But Grace + Faith + Obedience = Salvation.

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Falla39

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Man's response to God's Grace, through faith and obedience is what brings salvation.

Not Grace + 0 = Salvation! But Grace + Faith + Obedience = Salvation.

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Falla39

This is what gets me Falla this passage does not say we are saved by obediance. But rather we become obediant once we are saved.

Salvation comes by grace, which then in turn teaches us to deny ungodliness.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by truthseeker3139

You know all those people that say "first the standards, then the doctrine"? In most cases, truer words have never been spoken.

Ever stop and think, that the way of UPCI in many places and overall is alot like Mormanism and Jehovah witnesses? They have a new revelation, that everyone else must follow to be saved. They have added books to the bible to define the word of God. As man cannot be smart enough to see things himself he needs someone called of God like Joseph Smith to translate the word to us lay people.

As if God is going to allow his simple plan to be lost for over one thousand years and all the people during that time to be lost because they did not follow this plan of salvation to the letter as three steppers do.

IMHO all the things UPCI has made salvational are only things God reveled to us to bring us to a closer understanding of him to give us a close walk with him. They are not salvational.

Why do we have the put pouring of the spirit in the early 1900's? Because a group of (saved) bible students fasted and prayed because they wanted more of God and wanted the power that the early church had. From this came a better understanding of Jesus name and the oneness of the Godhead.

But oneness people made it a salvational issue thus bringing a division into the kingdom of God. Which God is mending today if we will let it.

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Ever stop and think, that the way of UPCI in many places and overall is alot like Mormanism and Jehovah witnesses? They have a new revelation, that everyone else must follow to be saved. They have added books to the bible to define the word of God. As man cannot be smart enough to see things himself he needs someone called of God like Joseph Smith to translate the word to us lay people.

As if God is going to allow his simple plan to be lost for over one thousand years and all the people during that time to be lost because they did not follow this plan of salvation to the letter as three steppers do.

IMHO all the things UPCI has made salvational are only things God reveled to us to bring us to a closer understanding of him to give us a close walk with him. They are not salvational.

Why do we have the put pouring of the spirit in the early 1900's? Because a group of (saved) bible students fasted and prayed because they wanted more of God and wanted the power that the early church had. From this came a better understanding of Jesus name and the oneness of the Godhead.

But oneness people made it a salvational issue thus bringing a division into the kingdom of God. Which God is mending today if we will let it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Man's response to God's Grace, through faith and obedience is what brings salvation.

Not Grace + 0 = Salvation! But Grace + Faith + Obedience = Salvation.

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Falla39

This is almost the definition of legalism that our performance can in any way gain us favor with God. We are saved by grace through faith it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.

I think the misunderstanding comes from simply understanding grace as a free pass, but grace is much more than that, it is the power of God. If obedience saves us, there is no need for the cross and all of us are doomed, because none of us can be righteous enough to stand before a holy God on our own merit. On judgement day, I plan on having my lawyer with me who already paid the price for my guilt. Thanks for your posts, however, you are certainly a friendly advocate for your beliefs and I appreciate that.

[truthseeker3139]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Ever stop and think, that the way of UPCI in many places and overall is alot like Mormanism and Jehovah witnesses? They have a new revelation, that everyone else must follow to be saved. They have added books to the bible to define the word of God. As man cannot be smart enough to see things himself he needs someone called of God like Joseph Smith to translate the word to us lay people.

As if God is going to allow his simple plan to be lost for over one thousand years and all the people during that time to be lost because they did not follow this plan of salvation to the letter as three steppers do.

IMHO all the things UPCI has made salvational are only things God reveled to us to bring us to a closer understanding of him to give us a close walk with him. They are not salvational.

Why do we have the put pouring of the spirit in the early 1900's? Because a group of (saved) bible students fasted and prayed because they wanted more of God and wanted the power that the early church had. From this came a better understanding of Jesus name and the oneness of the Godhead.

But oneness people made it a salvational issue thus bringing a division into the kingdom of God. Which God is mending today if we will let it.

Ding!Ding!Ding! Its always the obvious yokes of bondage that are first questioned, but if you don't stop there, and start questioning everything with the Word honestly, there's going to be a lot of things that aren't there scripturally. Now about that oneness doctrine, oh well, nevermind.