Are Beards The Mark Of The Beast?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by n david

The UPC isn't dying. Period. It's not dying in members or licensed ministers, nor is it dying spiritually. That's what people who aren't in the UPC like to claim. They would like to see the UPC die and fail so they could puff out their chest and say, "See, I told you so!"

There was a man I used to know and was close to once who became a Pastor and decided he wanted to be seeker friendly and relax the dress code. He didn't stay the Pastor very long.

Dress standards are still being followed and still being preached.


Actually Aquila posted a short quote which made it appear Bernard supported it. I posted a longer quote in which Bernard made his view of salvation clear. Here it is again:

“""Sincere profession based on a faulty concept of Christ is not enough; one must believe and obey the gospel. False prophets and cultists profess Christ, but they are not saved. According to Jesus, some people will sincerely profess Him, believe that they are saved, and even profess to perform miracles in His name, but they will not be saved because they did not obey His Word (Matthew 7:21-27). Many will profess to know Him and even to have enjoyed His presence but will not be saved (Luke 13:25-27).

We cannot impose demands that the Bible does not support, nor can we make exceptions that the Bible does not grant. Precisely because God is sovereign in granting salvation, we must limit ourselves to the clear teaching of Scripture. If God has plans that go beyond what He has revealed to us in the Bible, that is His prerogative, but we have authority only to teach the plan God gave to us in the Scriptures.We have no right to offer false or uncertain hopes based on wishful thinking, speculations, reasoning, philosophy, or doubtful interpretations of difficult passages. We cannot make exceptions for situations that arise from failure to follow biblical teachings and examples.

“What must I do to be saved?” The New Testament answer is to exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, by repenting from sin, being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, receiving the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking in tongues, and continuing to live a holy, separated life by the power of the indwelling Spirit.” (David Bernard)"""

Once again, you're wrong.


This is funny.


Gimme a break. All your accusations are about the people. The licensed ministers and the congregants.

Btw that's not the same quote of David Bernard (it was numbered), id go find it but don't got time , like I said it doesn't matter.

But you can flip around what I said but once again. I don't truly care about this whole thing. Take it or leave it. But my Pastors pastor (who is one of the committee of elders, over our church) was high up and held office in the State of Oklahoma, for many years. I wasn't reciting anything I heard by ol so and so. When we left the whole congregation had to vote to leave the UPCI and it was voted unanimously, and they laid all the issues on the table. The light doctrine was one of the main ones, but there were more.

So let's just leave it at this I'm not saying anything about you, so please stop trying to act like I am. I said this is not about any congregation, or people who go to a UPC church, but the leadership of the organization. Nothing more, nothing less.. Please and thank you, have a good day and God bless, in Jesus name..

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Btw that's not the same quote of David Bernard (it was numbered), id go find it but don't got time , like I said it doesn't matter.

But you can flip around what I said but once again. I don't truly care about this whole thing. Take it or leave it. But my Pastors pastor (who is one of the committee of elders, over our church) was the District Superintendent of Oklahoma, for many years. I wasn't reciting anything I heard by ol so and so. When we left the whole congregation had to vote to leave the UPCI and it was voted unanimously, and they laid all the issues on the table. The light doctrine was one of the main ones, but there were more.

So let's just leave it at this I'm not saying anything about you, so please stop trying to act like I am. I said this is not about any congregation, or people who go to a UPC church, but the leadership of the organization. Nothing more, nothing less.. Please and thank you, have a good day and God bless, in Jesus name..

I'm not sure if what I'm about to say is the light doctrine or not. Please tell me your thoughts.

I pray that I'm missing something in the Word and that God has mercy on all sincere souls who call upon the name of Jesus. I won't be disappointed if I get to Heaven and find that this was the case. However, based on my reading and study of Scripture, I personally don't see how anyone can be saved without experiencing justification, identification, and regeneration through obedience to Acts 2:38. As a result, that's what I joyously share with anyone who wants to know what they must do to be saved. In the end, God alone will be the judge of all men. I leave all the questions and all the hypothetical "what ifs" that I've heard, and that have even troubled me throughout the years, at the feet of God. He will judge, and He will judge righteously in accordance to His Word.

Obey Acts 2:38!

[n david]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Btw that's not the same quote of David Bernard (it was numbered), id go find it but don't got time , like I said it doesn't matter.

No, it does matter. You're claiming I posted something which showed Bernard supporting the Light doctrine. That is incorrect. He does not support the light doctrine.

Aquila posted a snippet from a book:
"""5. God’s judgment will take into account the light available to each individual (Luke 12:42-48; Mark 12:38-40; Romans 2:6, 11-16)."""

I went and found what else Bernard had to say about that, which is what I posted here.

“""Sincere profession based on a faulty concept of Christ is not enough; one must believe and obey the gospel. False prophets and cultists profess Christ, but they are not saved. According to Jesus, some people will sincerely profess Him, believe that they are saved, and even profess to perform miracles in His name, but they will not be saved because they did not obey His Word (Matthew 7:21-27). Many will profess to know Him and even to have enjoyed His presence but will not be saved (Luke 13:25-27).

We cannot impose demands that the Bible does not support, nor can we make exceptions that the Bible does not grant. Precisely because God is sovereign in granting salvation, we must limit ourselves to the clear teaching of Scripture. If God has plans that go beyond what He has revealed to us in the Bible, that is His prerogative, but we have authority only to teach the plan God gave to us in the Scriptures.We have no right to offer false or uncertain hopes based on wishful thinking, speculations, reasoning, philosophy, or doubtful interpretations of difficult passages. We cannot make exceptions for situations that arise from failure to follow biblical teachings and examples.

“What must I do to be saved?” The New Testament answer is to exercise faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, by repenting from sin, being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, receiving the Holy Ghost with the initial sign of speaking in tongues, and continuing to live a holy, separated life by the power of the indwelling Spirit.” (David Bernard)"""

You cannot make an accusation as you did, then when something is presented proving it's wrong try and say, "it doesn't matter." It does matter. You made a claim which is not true. Bernard does not believe in the Light doctrine, nor do an overwhelming majority of licensed UPCI ministers.

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

But you can flip around what I said but once again. I don't truly care about this whole thing. Take it or leave it. But my Pastors pastor (who is one of the committee of elders, over our church) was high up and held office in the State of Oklahoma, for many years. I wasn't reciting anything I heard by ol so and so. When we left the whole congregation had to vote to leave the UPCI and it was voted unanimously, and they laid all the issues on the table. The light doctrine was one of the main ones, but there were more.

You obviously care about it, you left the UPC over it and even today (a year and a half later) are making accusations about it. I don't know what was going on in Oklahoma, but I know the UPC does not believe in or promote the Light doctrine. Not Bernard, nor any other HQ officials. I have met SG. I have heard many of his messages on salvation. I have met and used to know JJ and have heard many of his messages on salvation. I have heard and read DB's comments and messages on salvation. None believe or promote the Light doctrine.

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

So let's just leave it at this I'm not saying anything about you, so please stop trying to act like I am. I said this is not about any congregation, or people who go to a UPC church, but the leadership of the organization. Nothing more, nothing less.. Please and thank you, have a good day and God bless, in Jesus name..

I know you're not saying it about me. I never said you were. But you have lumped together and impugned licensed UPCI ministers, including Bernard.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Dont you just love it when 10 times in the meeting the Preacher does something like this? For example:

Turn around to your neighbor and say..."The sky is blue"!

It seems this is in all Churches now.

Some people just want to nitpick.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

What is the youth retention in your church?

It is my understanding that the average youth retention in the UPCI was only between 18%-20% in 2015. I'm not sure about what it is today, but let's assume it is at least around the same. This means that even in UPCI churches 80%-82% of the youth leave church upon adulthood, the marker typically being graduation from high school. Yes, based on this, the UPCI is losing as much as 82% of their youth.

What of the remaining 18% to 20%? Are they truly "Christlike"? Are they mere drones to advance the forms and fashions of the organization? Do they walk in true grace and spiritual power? Who knows? Certainly some do. But if what Scripture states is any indicator, most likely it is a minority of even those who are still in the pews.

As far as house churching goes... what constitutes "retention"? A lifelong faith in Christ. House churches typically don't mandate a form or fashion, so their style of dress etc. isn't a factor in our considerations. It is their faith. Do they continue to read the Bible? Do they continue to pray? Do they continue to love Jesus? Do they continue to strive to love others as themselves? While many house church families have children who, like their parents, do not attend an institutional church. So, that isn't a benchmark. In the last house church network I attended, nearly 67% of the youth graduated and moved on to attend Cedarville, a local Christian university, or Earlham College, and maintained ties to their local network also. Those are actually better statistics than the UPCI as a whole, as far as mere retention goes. And that's not even counting those who don't go to college who continue to fellowship, go off to attend a traditional church, get married, or open their homes to form their own house church. I'd say that house church statistics are flipped compared to the UPCI. We probably loose roughly 12% to unbelief.

House church families don't count kids lost if they don't attend a Sunday Show. What we look for is basic Christian living. Personally, for my kids, I want to see a "Spirit filled" Christian living. That will be something to see evolve as time progresses. The key in house churching is to maintain a relationship wherein faith is shared with your kids. If at 25 I ask my son, "Noah, check-in." (A term used in our house church for open up and tell about your spiritual condition), if he states, "Well, I've struggled with going to fellowship the past couple months because of class (or work), but I do continue to read my Bible and pray. I've talked about Jesus to five of my classmates. I'd like God to make a way for me to have more fellowship.", in house churching... that's a win. We just need to help the boy find some Christian fellowship be it weekly or monthly.

We don't insist that they dress like wedding cake toppers and attend an institutional church, dancing to the Sunday Show every weekend, or count them as lost if they don't.

Where do you get your retention number from?
Just plucked out of the air by someone and since it fits your agenda you latched onto it as truth?
I can tell you that the 6 churches I have been involved with are retaining somewhere around 75% of their youth.
And the other 25% that leave? It was due to parents who were not committed to the church/doctrine/pastor or if you want to say were struggling with their own commitment to God.
I have raised 2 boys and am raising a third. We have also raised several boys who were not our biological children.
My oldest two are both ministers at their local churches.
So, I know something about raising children.
One of my brothers followed his pastor down the path of "no standards".
None of his children are saved and the ironic thing is that he and his wife stayed with the church, although they still follow the old "standards".
He just recently told me he wished he had it to do over.
Another brother became bitter at the church and now worships at the altar of Harley-Davidson. At least that is who he and his wife spend their weekends with.
None of their children are saved.
I weary of talking to parents over and over who are not taking their childrens salvation seriously.
But, go ahead, don't listen to me continue down the path you are on.
You need a church.
You need a pastor.
And so do your children.

And did you really say that you expect your son to be living with you at 25?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Btw that's not the same quote of David Bernard (it was numbered), id go find it but don't got time , like I said it doesn't matter.

But you can flip around what I said but once again. I don't truly care about this whole thing. Take it or leave it. But my Pastors pastor (who is one of the committee of elders, over our church) was high up and held office in the State of Oklahoma, for many years. I wasn't reciting anything I heard by ol so and so. When we left the whole congregation had to vote to leave the UPCI and it was voted unanimously, and they laid all the issues on the table. The light doctrine was one of the main ones, but there were more.

So let's just leave it at this I'm not saying anything about you, so please stop trying to act like I am. I said this is not about any congregation, or people who go to a UPC church, but the leadership of the organization. Nothing more, nothing less.. Please and thank you, have a good day and God bless, in Jesus name..

Now you've done it.
I grew up in Oklahoma.
I know practically everyone in leadership in Oklahoma.
I know the past leadership in Oklahoma.
If you are trying to say that the UPC leadership in Oklahoma believes the light doctrine, you are a liar.
And I do not say that "lightly".

[aegsm76]

One more thing and I will not post on this thread again, because I just had a revelation.
Maybe from God, maybe from my own mind.
There are some Apostolic Pastors in Oklahoma who became bitter against the UPC.
I know these men personally.
They are good men.
But, they believe they were done wrong by the UPC.
I hope that these men are not now spreading their bitterness, by sowing discord.
But, I have seen it happen.
And the end of one who sows discord is never good.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

One more thing and I will not post on this thread again, because I just had a revelation.
Maybe from God, maybe from my own mind.
There are some Apostolic Pastors in Oklahoma who became bitter against the UPC.
I know these men personally.
They are good men.
But, they believe they were done wrong by the UPC.
I hope that these men are not now spreading their bitterness, by sowing discord.
But, I have seen it happen.
And the end of one who sows discord is never good.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

One more thing and I will not post on this thread again, because I just had a revelation.
Maybe from God, maybe from my own mind.
There are some Apostolic Pastors in Oklahoma who became bitter against the UPC.
I know these men personally.
They are good men.
But, they believe they were done wrong by the UPC.
I hope that these men are not now spreading their bitterness, by sowing discord.
But, I have seen it happen.
And the end of one who sows discord is never good.

Revelation comes from God, thoughts come from your mind. What's the thought?

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

You need a church.
You need a pastor.
And so do your children.