All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Epley]

Baptism saves because the inspired writer who had the keys said it does. YOu are fussing with the man who had the keys. YOU don't have the keys.

[Amanah]

Baptism is the heart of the Trinity/Oneness debate. If there is one God and the name that was given us whereby we must be saved is Jesus, then baptizing in Jesus name is the only sensible baptism.

Why anyone would baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost is beyond me as those are titles not names.

His name is Jesus. Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of our sins. We are buried with him in baptism and raised with him to walk in fullness of life. There is no name given among men under heaven whereby we must be saved.

When a person repents of their sins and receives the Holy Ghost, God has done a wonderful work in their life that is beyond question.

The vital question then is, when is the blood applied, is it applied at repentance, or at baptism. Is it by grace alone? Or are there things we must do in obedience. The bible says that we are the children of God if we are led by the Spirit of God.

It can't be us doing the work; it must be Christ in us doing the work, remitting our sins, filling us with the Spirit, leading us in our walk with him. We are the bride, responding, following, and submitting.

I see two twists that our path can take if we are not balanced, the legalistic, controlling, path or the path of easy grace where we do nothing. Shall we sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. I think both paths are incorrect. One path veers towards cultic extremism, while the other veers towards complacent irrelevancy. I’d almost rather be extreme then irrelevant in the face of a lost and dying world.

What I really desire is to understand the truth of God’s word untainted by the traditions and opinions of men, I want to be renewed and transformed to be like Jesus to a lost world.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Baptism is the heart of the Trinity/Oneness debate. If there is one God and the name that was given us whereby we must be saved is Jesus, then baptizing in Jesus name is the only sensible baptism.

Why anyone would baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost is beyond me as those are titles not names.

His name is Jesus. Jesus' blood was shed for the remission of our sins. We are buried with him in baptism and raised with him to walk in fullness of life. There is no name given among men under heaven whereby we must be saved.

When a person repents of their sins and receives the Holy Ghost, God has done a wonderful work in their life that is beyond question.

The vital question then is, when is the blood applied, is it applied at repentance, or at baptism. Is it by grace alone? Or are there things we must do in obedience. The bible says that we are the children of God if we are led by the Spirit of God.

It can't be us doing the work; it must be Christ in us doing the work, remitting our sins, filling us with the Spirit, leading us in our walk with him. We are the bride, responding, following, and submitting.

I see two twists that our path can take if we are not balanced, the legalistic, controlling, path or the path of easy grace where we do nothing. Shall we sin so that grace may abound? God forbid. I think both paths are incorrect. One path veers towards cultic extremism, while the other veers towards complacent irrelevancy. I’d almost rather be extreme then irrelevant in the face of a lost and dying world.

What I really desire is to understand the truth of God’s word untainted by the traditions and opinions of men, I want to be renewed and transformed to be like Jesus to a lost world.

Very, very good post!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am happy you was filled with the Spirit however until your sins were remitted in water baptism in Jesus Name if you would have died you would have been lost. Is that direct enough.

Your statement just demonstrates your ignorance and shallow understanding as to what the baptism in the Holy Ghost actually is, and what it accomplishes in a person's life. What you've described here is a sotierological impossibility.

When God fills someone with the Spirit, he is declaring that Christ's blood has made them a fit vessel for him to inhabit. He is declaring them to be washed, holy, sanctified, and justified.

In another place you said....

ONLY through His shed blood can a man have remission of sins and that takes place when the penitent is immersed in water having the Name of Jesus Christ invoked over him. When you reject that you reject the blood.

I hear this discussion all the time.."When is the blood applied to the sinner? Is it at repentance or baptism? Is the blood in the Name?" I'll tell when the blood is applied to the sinner.....NEVER!! It seems you and others are teaching some sort of transubstantiation. Let me be clear, THE BLOOD OF JESUS IS NEVER APPLIED TO ANYONE. The blood of Jesus is not circling the earth, waiting to be poured out on repentant sinners. The blood has ALREADY been applied for the ENTIRE human race! Hebrews 1:3 says....

when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Notice that the purging is past tense. God told Peter concerning the yet unconverted Gentile Cornelius...

“What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

(Acts 10:15)

Again, notice the use of the past tense. In God's mind, the cleansing had already taken place.

The blood of Jesus satisfied the demands of God's justice. Furthermore, it purchased the entire human race for God. God purchased every human being to be the temple his Spirit would live in.

Now certainly the sinner must personally appropriate the work of the cross by faith by repenting and being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. But to say that somehow we are "applying the blood" to them by saying the word "Jesus", and that their salvation is narrowed down to this fine detail, is BLASPHEMY and actually weakens the finished work of the cross!!

What we should be focusing on when we baptizing someone in Jesus name? Instead of mindlessly shouting over the fact that someone said the right words, we should be focusing on making sure that sinner understands the seriousness of what he is about to do. When a sinner submits to baptism, he is in effect saying...

Lord Jesus. I realize now I have lived for myself. I have been a thief and idolater by not surrendering to you the temple of my body which you purchased by your blood. I've robbed you of glory. I surrender all to you today. This body with all of its members rightfully belong to you. By being buried with you I'm acknowledging my sin, and that I must forsake any attempt of self righteousness and put my faith fully in your blood as the payment for my sin. I acknowledge my total lack of righteousness and trust you now to impute unto me your own righteousness. You are Lord! I acknowledge you today as my King and will from this day forward follow you as a disciple"

Oh but instead, we rush them through heart felt repentance, not allowing the Law to be a school master to bring the knowledge of sin. We rush them right into the baptistry and then shout more for what the baptizer said than we shout for the sinner who has come home. Half the time they have no idea what they've just done and figure, "Oh well, I sure seemed to have made these people happy. I guess that's enough".

Back to my previous statement on your shallow understanding of what Holy Ghost baptism is and what it accomplishes. Let's be clear. The only LITERAL cleansing anyone ever gets comes from Holy Ghost baptism. Yes, it took the blood to justify us so a Holy God could inhabit us. But it's not the death of Christ that ultimately saves us, it's his LIFE! Look at Romans 5;10.....

For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

What saves us? Paul tells us in Titus 3:5 EXACTLY what it is that saves us!!

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

There it is Pastor Epley!! Paul tells us what saves us!! But YOU don't believe it!! You commit blasphemy and trample underfoot the blood of Christ by saying that those God saved by "washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit" aren't really saved!

Galatians 4:6 says...

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Pastor Epley says they are not sons.

Romans 8:15 says....

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Pastor Epley says they are not adopted.

Ephesians 1:13 says....

And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

Pastor Epley says they are not God's own and that they have no inheritance.

Galatians 3:14 says....

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Pastor Epley says, that even though they have the Spirit, they still don't have the blessings of Abraham.

I Corinthians 6:11 says....

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Pastor Epley says that even though they are "washed, sanctified and justified", they are still going to hell.


Acts 15:8-9 says....

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Here Holy Ghost baptism is described as what literally purifies the heart through faith. But Pastor Epley says that even though the Holy host purified their hearts, they are still going to hell.

Now, having said all of that, I will also say that within the ranks of Trinitarian Pentecostal churches, the baptism in the Holy Ghost is seldom mentioned anymore, which leads me to believe fewer and fewer people are actually being regenerated in their midst. Very sad.

Oneness Pentecostals are also falling into the trap of preaching a "life enhancement gospel". I expect true conversions to start waning within their ranks as well.

Furthermore, the "one steppers" on here will still not agree with me. But there is not a single place in the Bible that teaches we are saved by "repeating a sinner's prayer".

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The vital question then is, when is the blood applied, is it applied at repentance, or at baptism. Is it by grace alone? Or are there things we must do in obedience. The bible says that we are the children of God if we are led by the Spirit of God.

Please see my last post to Pastor Epley.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Your statement just demonstrates your ignorance and shallow understanding as to what the baptism in the Holy Ghost actually is, and what it accomplishes in a person's life. What you've described here is a sotierological impossibility.

When God fills someone with the Spirit, he is declaring that Christ's blood has made them a fit vessel for him to inhabit. He is declaring them to be washed, holy, sanctified, and justified.

In another place you said....



I hear this discussion all the time.."When is the blood applied to the sinner? Is it at repentance or baptism? Is the blood in the Name?" I'll tell when the blood is applied to the sinner.....NEVER!! It seems you and others are teaching some sort of transubstantiation. Let me be clear, THE BLOOD OF JESUS IS NEVER APPLIED TO ANYONE. The blood of Jesus is not circling the earth, waiting to be poured out on repentant sinners. The blood has ALREADY been applied for the ENTIRE human race! Hebrews 1:3 says....




Notice that the purging is past tense. God told Peter concerning the yet unconverted Gentile Cornelius...
(Acts 10:15)

Again, notice the use of the past tense. In God's mind, the cleansing had already taken place.

The blood of Jesus satisfied the demands of God's justice. Furthermore, it purchased the entire human race for God. God purchased every human being to be the temple his Spirit would live in.

Now certainly the sinner must personally appropriate the work of the cross by faith by repenting and being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. But to say that somehow we are "applying the blood" to them by saying the word "Jesus", and that their salvation is narrowed down to this fine detail, is BLASPHEMY and actually weakens the finished work of the cross!!

What we should be focusing on when we baptizing someone in Jesus name? Instead of mindlessly shouting over the fact that someone said the right words, we should be focusing on making sure that sinner understands the seriousness of what he is about to do. When a sinner submits to baptism, he is in effect saying...



Oh but instead, we rush them through heart felt repentance, not allowing the Law to be a school master to bring the knowledge of sin. We rush them right into the baptistry and then shout more for what the baptizer said than we shout for the sinner who has come home. Half the time they have no idea what they've just done and figure, "Oh well, I sure seemed to have made these people happy. I guess that's enough".

Back to my previous statement on your shallow understanding of what Holy Ghost baptism is and what it accomplishes. Let's be clear. The only LITERAL cleansing anyone ever gets comes from Holy Ghost baptism. Yes, it took the blood to justify us so a Holy God could inhabit us. But it's not the death of Christ that ultimately saves us, it's his LIFE! Look at Romans 5;10.....


What saves us? Paul tells us in Titus 3:5 EXACTLY what it is that saves us!!


There it is Pastor Epley!! Paul tells us what saves us!! But YOU don't believe it!! You commit blasphemy and trample underfoot the blood of Christ by saying that those God saved by "washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit" aren't really saved!

Galatians 4:6 says...



Pastor Epley says they are not sons.

Romans 8:15 says....



Pastor Epley says they are not adopted.

Ephesians 1:13 says....



Pastor Epley says they are not God's own and that they have no inheritance.

Galatians 3:14 says....



Pastor Epley says, that even though they have the Spirit, they still don't have the blessings of Abraham.

I Corinthians 6:11 says....



Pastor Epley says that even though they are "washed, sanctified and justified", they are still going to hell.


Acts 15:8-9 says....



Here Holy Ghost baptism is described as what literally purifies the heart through faith. But Pastor Epley says that even though the Holy host purified their hearts, they are still going to hell.

Now, having said all of that, I will also say that within the ranks of Trinitarian Pentecostal churches, the baptism in the Holy Ghost is seldom mentioned anymore, which leads me to believe fewer and fewer people are actually being regenerated in their midst. Very sad.

Oneness Pentecostals are also falling into the trap of preaching a "life enhancement gospel". I expect true conversions to start waning within their ranks as well.

Wow....All that time spent to propagate complete error.

Though I don't have the time right this moment, there was more hermeneutical error here than a lesbian pastor could spew out!

You clearly need to learn about biblical soteriology.

One quick hint: The epistles you referenced were alllll addressed to folks already water baptized in Jesus' Name (Gal. 3.27; I Cor. 1.13; Rom. 6.3-4; Titus 3.5; Eph. 4.5; etc.).

You are the one who needs to go back to the drawing board....Not Elder Epley !

Will try to get back later to offer point-by-point analysis of your mistakes....Since they are virtually every sentence you posted.

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by rdp

Wow....All that time spent to propagate complete error.

Though I don't have the time right this moment, there was more hermeneutical error here than a lesbian pastor could spew out!

You clearly need to learn about biblical soteriology.

One quick hint: The epistles you referenced were alllll addressed to folks already water baptized in Jesus' Name (Gal. 3.27; I Cor. 1.13; Rom. 6.3-4; Titus 3.5; Eph. 4.5; etc.).

You are the one who needs to go back to the drawing board....Not Elder Epley !

Will try to get back later to offer point-by-point analysis of your mistakes....Since they are virtually every sentence you posted.

Yee haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa............

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Please see my last post to Pastor Epley.

I don't know who you have been reading but it wasn't me. I have never said anything about the blood being APPLIED.
However the blood that was shed redeemed all mankind from their sins. He came to take away the sins of the world. Only by his shed blood are our sins forgiven-remitted-and we are filled with His Spirit. His blood provided that experience called the new birth.
Remission of sins provided by the shedding of his blood was preached in His Name BEGINNING at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47
Peter NOT I said remission of sins for the penitent takes place when we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
The NAME and the Spirit washes-sanctifies-justifies read it and weep 1Cor.6:11
We are saved by a WASHING of regeneration and a renewing of the Spirit. Titus 3:5
NOT one person from Pentecost until present has been saved outside of obeying Acts 2:38!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by rdp

Wow....All that time spent to propagate complete error.

Though I don't have the time right this moment, there was more hermeneutical error here than a lesbian pastor could spew out!

You clearly need to learn about biblical soteriology.

One quick hint: The epistles you referenced were alllll addressed to folks already water baptized in Jesus' Name (Gal. 3.27; I Cor. 1.13; Rom. 6.3-4; Titus 3.5; Eph. 4.5; etc.).

You are the one who needs to go back to the drawing board....Not Elder Epley !

Will try to get back later to offer point-by-point analysis of your mistakes....Since they are virtually every sentence you posted.

Yep. His 'logic' reminds me of the Abbott and Costello gig about 'who is on first?"

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I don't know who you have been reading but it wasn't me. I have never said anything about the blood being APPLIED.
However the blood that was shed redeemed all mankind from their sins. He came to take away the sins of the world. Only by his shed blood are our sins forgiven-remitted-and we are filled with His Spirit. His blood provided that experience called the new birth.
Remission of sins provided by the shedding of his blood was preached in His Name BEGINNING at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47
Peter NOT I said remission of sins for the penitent takes place when we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
The NAME and the Spirit washes-sanctifies-justifies read it and weep 1Cor.6:11
We are saved by a WASHING of regeneration and a renewing of the Spirit. Titus 3:5
NOT one person from Pentecost until present has been saved outside of obeying Acts 2:38!

Sir, if God has filled someone with the Spirit, then God considers them to have obeyed Acts 2:38.
Furthermore, I Cor 6:11 does not mention baptism in water (though that is not to negate the fact that baptism is essential. This verse ,however, is not referring to baptism).

And I agree that our sins are forgiven in water baptism in Jesus' name. I never denied that. Water baptism is the bridge that leads to Holy Ghost baptism. So if you've received the Holy Ghost, you've crossed the bridge as far as God is concerned. Certainly we must educate our Trinitarian brethren as to the correct way to baptize, but that does not mean that those they baptized are not saved when God has declared them his own by giving them the same gift He gave to us. It just means they need more truth. Pastor Epley, do you need more truth? We all do.

Titus 3:5 is talking about the washing of the Spirit. It never mentions water baptism

And I agree that his blood provided the experience called the new birth, but the Spirit baptism IS that new birth. Therefore, if someone has been given that experience by God,they are saved. You are in error to say that God has not forgiven their sins. Again, that is an impossibility. So, you still remain in error, and I look forward to your rebuttal. The verse concerning Spirit baptism speak for themselves.