Effective evangelists?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

While I have my views regarding the accuracy of the King James Version, I realize that this is a red herring. I am fully versed in the KJV. Even within the translation, the question comes back to what Paul asked in 1 Corinthians 12:29:



The obvious answer is "no". Therefore when all are invited/allowed to prophesy two chapters later, it must mean that not all who are invited/allowed to prophesy can be considered prophets, in the way Paul meant his rhetorical question in 12:29.



It is your right to believe as you wish, but ask yourself:

What qualifies you to make the above claim? How do you know that these not-so "ancient translators truly knew what the Greek to English translation should be"?

None of them were filled with the Holy Spirit. Some of them weren't even experts in Koine Greek. In their preface, the KJV translators even admit to not giving a perfectly literal, word for word translation. They also admit to not being able to perfectly translate every passage, hence why the 1611 version had over 8,000 margin notes.

See here:



and



Source: http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

You are crying foul about everyone who undertakes to understand the Greek text, because they aren't "expert" enough in your opinion, and yet, you AREN'T expert enough to make a judgment call about the Greek text, either.

The Greek text includes, UNDER INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT words that translate as "and", "if" or "the", and it does make a major difference in how the inspired text should be read and understood.

The King James Version is replete with these translated prepositions. Prepositions are words that modify nouns, whose grammatical duty is to literally "preach" meaning to the reader. To disregard them or as you have done, blatantly say they have no meaning in the understanding of the text is to undermine the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

You really want to go there?

Besides, if "The "and" or "if" or "the" etc. is irrelevant to the meaning of what the passage is telling us" then the KJV translators had no inspiration operating upon them to translate each preposition the way they did. They could translate each kai, gar, ho, tou, eis, epi, and etc. any way they wanted, without changing the meaning since the meaning is "irrelevant".



So has every other word, obviously, for better or for worse. Take "office of a bishop" in 1 Timothy 3:1. "office of" is not in italics and yet, the phrase isn't in the Greek text upon which the King James Version of the Bible is based.

So why isn't "office of" in italics?



What about banking on the actual Greek text upon which the KJV is based?



I am not against the "whole church" prophesying. Where did I say I was? I've only indicated that prophesying doesn't automatically a prophet make.



Not so, friend. I am not against everyone prophesying. I am against the idea that prophesying makes everyone an automatic prophet.



There's only one accuser of the brethren, Sean. We will be judged by every idle word we speak. Half-baked accusations against a saint not based in reality might cost you down the road.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

While I have my views regarding the accuracy of the King James Version, I realize that this is a red herring. I am fully versed in the KJV. Even within the translation, the question comes back to what Paul asked in 1 Corinthians 12:29:



The obvious answer is "no". Therefore when all are invited/allowed to prophesy two chapters later, it must mean that not all who are invited/allowed to prophesy can be considered prophets, in the way Paul meant his rhetorical question in 12:29.


Aaron, as I said, I believe the KJV is my only authority....I cannot feel comfortable teaching the Bible I think has been laced with errors, so as to make me an authority on what it is really saying.
As regarding 12:29...I took that into consideration before I put this idea out for your opinion.
Now, here is how I reconcile this so-called contradiction between chapter 12(not all prophets) and chapter 14( I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied).....
Could it not mean that the very desire of Paul and Jesus Himself is that ALL would prophecy?....Yet maybe chapter 12 is giving us a reality check that folks are just not interested in being used, therefore they are not gifted in the 5 fold ministry.



It is your right to believe as you wish, but ask yourself:

What qualifies you to make the above claim? How do you know that these not-so "ancient translators truly knew what the Greek to English translation should be"?

That is the risk I must take Aaron.....trusting the oldest, most connected group to the ancient Greek that were grouped together to give us our KJV Bible.

None of them were filled with the Holy Spirit. Some of them weren't even experts in Koine Greek. In their preface, the KJV translators even admit to not giving a perfectly literal, word for word translation. They also admit to not being able to perfectly translate every passage, hence why the 1611 version had over 8,000 margin notes.

How do you know that none of them were not filled with the Spirit Aaron?

Marginal notes are fine, so are Italics. I tried to read my interlinear word for word and it was difficult. To accurately "add" words in Italics, one would need a tremendous amount of historical knowledge of the language they are translating from....like I said...the older the group of translators to the ancient Greek, the better.

See here...

Source: http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

You are crying foul about everyone who undertakes to understand the Greek text, because they aren't "expert" enough in your opinion, and yet, you AREN'T expert enough to make a judgment call about the Greek text, either.

Aaron, I never said I was an expert...thats why I was trying to get us all on the same page with agreeing on a certain Bible as the AUTHORITY, without someone attacking the very source of the debate itself.(the KJV)



The Greek text includes, UNDER INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT words that translate as "and", "if" or "the", and it does make a major difference in how the inspired text should be read and understood.

The King James Version is replete with these translated prepositions. Prepositions are words that modify nouns, whose grammatical duty is to literally "preach" meaning to the reader. To disregard them or as you have done, blatantly say they have no meaning in the understanding of the text is to undermine the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron?


You really want to go there?

Besides, if "The "and" or "if" or "the" etc. is irrelevant to the meaning of what the passage is telling us" then the KJV translators had no inspiration operating upon them to translate each preposition the way they did. They could translate each kai, gar, ho, tou, eis, epi, and etc. any way they wanted, without changing the meaning since the meaning is "irrelevant".


Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron?




So has every other word, obviously, for better or for worse. Take "office of a bishop" in 1 Timothy 3:1. "office of" is not in italics and yet, the phrase isn't in the Greek text upon which the King James Version of the Bible is based.

So why isn't "office of" in italics?



What about banking on the actual Greek text upon which the KJV is based?

Notice that we are now in a debate of the authenticity of our Bible Aaron? Shall you now teach your congregation what you just taught us about the last Bible standing on planet earth, which is seeking to be vindicated. How would your congregation react when you tell them every Bible on planet earth is error filled? Is this just the ministry's dirty little secret, for only the "mature" Christian to discover?




I am not against the "whole church" prophesying. Where did I say I was? I've only indicated that prophesying doesn't automatically a prophet make.


I saw your post, in which said I had a point....I only ask you this question...What or Who qualifies a prophecier to be a bonafied prophet?

I would like a verse, or at least a decent explanation(from anyone) to disqualify these many individuals I personally know that actively prophecy in public or our churches from being "official" prophets in the eyes of our Lord Jesus.



Not so, friend. I am not against everyone prophesying. I am against the idea that prophesying makes everyone an automatic prophet.


I think a prophecier is a prophet. I cant find any Biblical basis to think otherwise. But we can agree to disagree, okay?



There's only one accuser of the brethren, Sean. We will be judged by every idle word we speak. Half-baked accusations against a saint not based in reality might cost you down the road.

I apologize right here and now if I have misrepresented you Aaron....I really respect you and your posts, also you are VERY spiritual in my eyes. I disagree from time to time with you, but it's no big deal to me. As you said...God will judge us all for what we believe. Thats why I made the call years ago to find myself a "flawless" word of God to present to sinners and saints. If I find out in eternity that it(KJV) was error prone, then I expect Grace to get me through the gates of heaven(because of blind faith). But if I choose to oppose its' words in this life, then later find out it was arranged by the Lord for the Last Days church to have an accurate "word from God", I am dead meat(at least that's the way I see it.) My stand for the KJV is truly to me..a SALVATION ISSUE!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

My stand for the KJV is truly to me..a SALVATION ISSUE!

All I can say is wow.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Elizabethan isn't my first language?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Mind blowing isn't it?

[Sean]

Oh oh....here come the wascowy pwetewists....huhuhuhuhuh!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Oh oh....here come the wascowy pwetewists....huhuhuhuhuh!

You are insecure.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Sean

Aaron, as I said, I believe the KJV is my only authority....I cannot feel comfortable teaching the Bible I think has been laced with errors, so as to make me an authority on what it is really saying.
As regarding 12:29...I took that into consideration before I put this idea out for your opinion.
Now, here is how I reconcile this so-called contradiction between chapter 12(not all prophets) and chapter 14( I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied).....
Could it not mean that the very desire of Paul and Jesus Himself is that ALL would prophecy?....Yet maybe chapter 12 is giving us a reality check that folks are just not interested in being used, therefore they are not gifted in the 5 fold ministry.

Sean, when you teach those "rookies with passion" how to teach Acts 2:38, what do you tell them the word "baptism" means?

Some "believers" teach baptism means immersion. Others that it means sprinkling. Since the meaning of "baptism" isn't specifically defined in the KJV, how do you prove what it means in Acts 2:38 to your talmidim?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats why I made the call years ago to find myself a "flawless" word of God to present to sinners and saints.

Sean, I asked this a few posts back, but you never gave the solution for all the other Bible translations in foreign languages?

What about the Turkish Bible Kutsal Kitap, what do we do with our house churches over in Istanbul? What about house church over in Greece? What about the churches in Mexico, Honduras, Panama, Colombia, do they all have to not only learn English but Elizabethan English? What you are doing isn't presenting a logical solution, but just a bigger problem. Not only do you have issue with modern translators and preachers presenting the meanings of the Greek, but logically to remain consistent to your belief you would have to require every non-English speaker to learn English and read your 17th century Bible in order to have a flawless word of God.

[Sean]

They got em all in the KJV!!!YAY!!!