Why Sunday

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I have a question, it may be a dumb question. Why is the discussion wrapped around Moses, at the time when he gave the children of Israel the Ten Commandments, some are saying that’s the start of the covenant. What about his covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15? The Lord told Abraham, his people were going to be in bondage and released after so many years. Remember they refer to him as Father Abraham, the covenant started with him, not with Moses or even the children of Israel.

Because Hebrews 8 refers to the covenant God made with the Israelites when he led them out of Egypt. Since it refers to this covenant, we don’t go back to the Abrahamic covenant.

We are following the context of Hebrews 8.


The only dumb question is the one that is not asked.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

The covenant was clearly accepted in verse 8.

Exodus 19:8 (AV)
And all the people answered together, and said,
All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.
And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

Brother Avery,

Allow me to quote some language that is very similar to this that you quote above. This passage is found in Exodus 24.

[6] And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
[7] And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
[8] And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

I believe that this is the same covenant that is mentioned in chapter 19. It is consummated (or made legal, which would be comparable to us today signing a contract) in chapter 24.

Do you see where the other covenant was ever sprinkled in blood?

I do not. I don’t believe there are two covenants in Exodus. If there is another covenant, where are the terms? I don’t see any evidence of another covenant.

[Tithesmeister]

Another passage that may be relevant . . .

1Kgs.8 KJV

[9] There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.


Notice that it says a covenant. It doesn’t say two covenants, or some covenants, it says, “a covenant “, which of course, is singular.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother Avery,

Allow me to quote some language that is very similar to this that you quote above. This passage is found in Exodus 24.

[6] And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
[7] And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
[8] And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

I believe that this is the same covenant that is mentioned in chapter 19. It is consummated (or made legal, which would be comparable to us today signing a contract) in chapter 24.

Do you see where the other covenant was ever sprinkled in blood?

I do not. I don’t believe there are two covenants in Exodus. If there is another covenant, where are the terms? I don’t see any evidence of another covenant.

There were only two covenants as far as we are concerned, the old one with Moses and the new one with Jesus. Those two are the major ones. Abraham's covenant is considered part of the new and came into effect when Christ came.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The verse you quoted in Hebrews 8 . . .

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Is preceded by verse 8

Hebrews 8:8 KJV

[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Which is a quote from Jeremiah 31 . . .

[31] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

So the NEW COVENANT spoken of in Hebrews 8:13, is prophesied of in Jeremiah 31, which as you know is in the OT.

But if you are asking how the covenant mentioned in Exodus 19 came to be referred to as the OLD COVENANT my answer to that is that the author of the book you posted on here (Allen Walker?) is the one who said that it was the old covenant.

I say that it became the OLD COVENANT by applying the rule in Hebrews 8:13. When he saith a new covenant . . .

If there is a new covenant, then by default, the pre-existing covenant would become old.

Therefore, if the covenant made in Exodus 20 was different than the one in Exodus 19, as Allen Walker claims, and not part of the covenant that contains the Ten Commandments (as I believe) then the previous one (chapter 19) would be old already, even though it is only three days old. This is completely illogical to me.

Do you believe that the covenant mentioned in Exodus 19 is separate from the covenant sprinkled with blood in Exodus 24?

I do not.

Remember the distinction of chapter numbers was added to the Bible. If you take away the chapter numbers, and simply read the book of Exodus, it will look like one story, about one covenant. The structure of that covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Very good points!

And this brings to mind a very good point. Jeremiah 31 teaches us that the old Covenant was unable to be kept. And that includes the Ten Commandments, just as Paul explained in Romans chapter 7 that he tried to obey the Covenant commandment to not covet, and found that the letter of the law was used by Sin as a weapon to kill him. In other words he was saying exactly the same thing Jeremiah said. People couldn't keep it. And Paul again explained that we are now led by the spirit in the law of the spirit of Life, which does cause the law of sin and death to be overcome, whereas the Mosaic law of Commandments was unable to do that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I have a question, it may be a dumb question. Why is the discussion wrapped around Moses, at the time when he gave the children of Israel the Ten Commandments, some are saying that’s the start of the covenant. What about his covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15? The Lord told Abraham, his people were going to be in bondage and released after so many years. Remember they refer to him as Father Abraham, the covenant started with him, not with Moses or even the children of Israel.

Well, the debate is about whether or not the 4th commandment is still obligatory. Brother Blume says the obligation of the 4th commandment has been changed from remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy to enter the new covenant rest provided by Christ. Brother Tithesmeister is saying the 4th commandment has been abolished or done away with altogether along with the other nine, since the ten commandments are the old covenant itself. This last bit is where the discussion is currently, since brother Avery introduced and referenced a claim by a Mr Wallace that the old covenant that is done away with is a covenant in Ex 19 and thus NOT the ten commandments or the covenant described in Ex 20. So the discussion is currently focused on what happened at Sinai (for brother Avery and brother Tithemeister).

I agree with you that this actually goes back to Abraham (actually even further, back to Adam) as the Sinaitic covenant is connected to the Abrahamic covenant (as is the new covenant). But right now they are hashing out how many covenants were made at Sinai, and what bearing this has on the ten commandments.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

The Old and New Covenants – The Two Covenants
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/...covenants.html

Very close to the Allen Walker section.

Next I want to look up Moses Hull, writing about 1860.

"The Law of Moses was stored in the side of the Ark of the Covenant and was a temporary law that was nailed to the cross as it was practised because of sin until Christ came and took the place of this Law."

"The Ten Commandments on the other hand were stored on the inside of the Ark of the Covenant under the mercy seat and is eternal in nature and was NOT nailed to the cross as breaking this Law is sin. "

"Now that Jesus has become our sacrificial Lamb and ended the worldly sacrificial sanctuary system, the New Covenant does not have or need the ordinances and now has only the Ten Commandment Covenant as observed in the above verse, which God now writes in our hearts and minds."

Brother Avery, this is a specimen of the writing at the link you gave from ten-commandments.org. I have to say this article is erroneous, and commits the error of asserting the law of Moses is NOT the law of God. If the author's claim is true, then the NT is wrong in affirming many things are sinful which are NOT identified as such by the decalogue: sodomy, extortion, witchcraft, envy, pride, drunkenness, fornication (including incest), and so forth. According to the author's logic, the only sins possible are those which transgress the decalogue.

The fact the apostolic new testament writers treat anything prohibited by the Pentateuch as sin is proof the early church did not hold the opinion held by the article.

[Esaias]

Speaking of multiple covenants...

Deuteronomy 29:1 KJV
These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Speaking of multiple covenants...

Deuteronomy 29:1 KJV
These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

And speaking of "written on stones"...

Deuteronomy 27:1-9 KJV
And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day. [2] And it shall be on the day when ye shall pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones, and plaister them with plaister: [3] And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. [4] Therefore it shall be when ye be gone over Jordan, that ye shall set up these stones, which I command you this day, in mount Ebal, and thou shalt plaister them with plaister. [5] And there shalt thou build an altar unto the Lord thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them. [6] Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the Lord thy God: [7] And thou shalt offer peace offerings, and shalt eat there, and rejoice before the Lord thy God. [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Speaking of multiple covenants...

Deuteronomy 29:1 KJV
These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Originally Posted by Esaias

And speaking of "written on stones"...

Deuteronomy 27:1-9 KJV
And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day. [2] And it shall be on the day when ye shall pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones, and plaister them with plaister: [3] And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. [4] Therefore it shall be when ye be gone over Jordan, that ye shall set up these stones, which I command you this day, in mount Ebal, and thou shalt plaister them with plaister. [5] And there shalt thou build an altar unto the Lord thy God, an altar of stones: thou shalt not lift up any iron tool upon them. [6] Thou shalt build the altar of the Lord thy God of whole stones: and thou shalt offer burnt offerings thereon unto the Lord thy God: [7] And thou shalt offer peace offerings, and shalt eat there, and rejoice before the Lord thy God. [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God.

Seems to me this has not really been accounted for in discussions about covenants so far.