BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This was already addressed earlier in this thread:



These passages show the real reason why the Jews rejected Christ. It wasn't because "they were looking for an earthly ruler". It was because they realised that Jesus was a threat to their own power and position.

This idea that Christ is not an earthly ruler is totally and completely unbibical:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus has been given all authority (dominion, rule) in heaven AND IN EARTH.
Over whom is Jesus reigning?

Luke 1:30-33 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. (31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The House of Jacob (the reunited Houses of Israel and Judah) are the immediate subjects of the Kingship, rule, and authority of Jesus Christ. He is "Christ" because He is the rightful heir to the throne of David. He rules over Israel, now, today. And Israel (New Covenant Israel, that is) is here on the earth, under His authority, jurisdiction, governance, rule, dominion, and power.

The idea that "Jesus reigns in heaven, but unregenerate men are to reign here on the earth" is completely unbiblical, unchristian, defeatist, and was in fact devised by the enemies of Christ for the specific purpose of convincing God's people to submit to ungodly government rather than seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. To seek the Kingdom of God FIRST means more than just seeking His Kingdom before one sought other things, it means the Kingdom is in the primary position, it is PRIMARY, first, the head, the source, the foundation, the main thing.

The Kingdom of God is the dominion or rule of God. It is not some feel good religious pious warm fuzzies in the belly derived from introspective devotional exercises. It is the real, actual submission of the individual to the Law-Word of the King. The New Covenant is the writing of the laws of God into the hearts and minds of His people, producing their actual obedience and "doing" of the things contained in the law of God:

Hebrews 8:8-10 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Romans 2:13-15 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. (6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The carnal mind is not subject (submitted to) the law of God, and cannot be (because it is enmity against God, in spite of its protestations to the contrary). Such persons cannot please God. Those who have the Spirit, have the righteousness of the law fulfilled in themselves, they are not in the flesh (are not carnal, and thus are in fact submitted to the law of God), and belong to Christ.

The mission of the church to is to disciple all nations (all ethnic groupings), teaching them to obey Christ in all things. That is, teaching the nations to submit to the Word-law of God under the Headship of Jesus the Messiah. that includes not only the personal, individual and household conversion of individual people and their families to Christ, but also includes the proclamation of the good news of God's Kingdom rule to ALL creatures. This includes the civil magistrate or "state" authorities:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The manifold wisdom of God is to be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places, by the church. That is one of the primary missions of the church. The powers and principalities in heavenly places are the civil magistrate:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

The Gospel is intrinsically theonomic. The "reconstruction" of secular society is nothing else than the advancing influence of the Kingdom of God through its members (the church) upon every single sphere of human life and activity: the individual, the family, the nation.

Now, some folks who claim the name of Christian don't want that. They don't want to see the Kingdom of God advance. They don't want society to reflect God's will, they really don't want God's will to be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven. They certainly don't want anybody looking to God's Word for advice or instruction or wisdom for society. They are Pietists, they believe everything is just between the individual and God alone, with no other considerations.

Yet, most of them are hypocritical, in that they often go to the Bible for instruction in managing their families and raising their children. Well, they do it partially, because they ignore the Bible's instructions concerning the claims of God upon the nations, upon rulers, and upon magistrates:

Psalms 2:1-12 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? (2) The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, (3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. (4) He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. (5) Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. (6) Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (8) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. (10) Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. (11) Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. (12) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Yes, indeed, "blessed are all they that put their trust in Him." Including those in governmental positions.

Jesus’ words . . .

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Jesus’ words . . .

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

His kingdom was not of this world - not of this kosmos, or world system of things. Otherwise, His servants would fight. Why? Because the King had been captured by the enemy, and that would spell the end of the Kingdom - IF His Kingdom was of this world system. But indeed, His Kingdom was NOT of this world, and His capture and execution by His enemies is the very thing that provided for His exaltation over ALL authority and power.

His Kingdom not being of this world does not mean His jurisdiction extends to nobody in this world, much less rulers and magistrates. Otherwise, Jesus is nothing but the tooth fairy.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Jesus’ words . . .

[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I also want to point out, that simply quoting Jesus' words in this verse does nothing to prove that the rest of the Scriptures I posted don't mean what they plainly say. Nor does it somehow "refute" any of my comments about those passages, because I never once have denied that Christ's Kingdom is not of this world. In fact, my entire position has, from the beginning, been that Christ's Kingdom is most certainly NOT of this world, and THEREFORE all societies are liable and obligated to submit to the Lordship of Christ. Christ's Kingdom not being "of" the world does not mean it is not "in" the world, it does not mean it is not "over" the world, and it does not mean it is not to "influence" the world. The Great Commission explicitly calls the church to influence the world towards submission to Christ's Kingdom.

What I am seeing is a very disjointed series of objections to the Sovereignty of God over the nations. This is due to the fact that the objectors do not have a truly coherent doctrine in place, from which they can effectively argue their personal opinion that they desire sexual perversion, blasphemy, and various other crimes to be protected by government.

That is not mere bombastic hyperbole, nor is it an ad hominem attack. It is simply the plain statement of what the antitheonomic (antinomian) position is. The idea that adulterers and sodomites, for example, would be punished by law is abhorrent to them. Which is funny, because adulterers and sodomites in fact used to be punished by law in America until the 1970s.

The same people who think America has gotten far removed from her original beginnings, and who think that liberty is under attack, seem to have a false view of American history. If America is becoming "less free" than it once was, then it necessarily follows America was "more free" in its early days than it is now. Yet, in its early days, America was far more theonomic than it is today. Sexual perversion and adultery was punishable by law. Blasphemy was punishable by law. In many cases, non Christians were explicitly forbidden by law (including by state constitutions) from serving in any kind of governmental capacity - and the prohibition often included Papists, let alone Jews and Muslims and atheists.

Yet, government was much smaller then. And in point of fact, less intrusive. There was no desire for mass surveillance. No need for a vast prison industrial complex, nor any need for large standing armies and a vast military industrial complex.

Folks are living in the upside down world, where everything is backward and contrary to history, reason, and truth.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Theonomy is saying that the State should use God's law as the standard instead of human reasoning.



Humans are fallible and make mistakes whether they are legislating socialism/human reasoning or Biblical law. Biblical law is a superior stating point.

Also, the bible says that Jesus is reigning now through the church. (Ephesians 1)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, some day they will get their earthly King to rule over them in an earthly kingdom?

It seems that this teaching concerning the Jews was originated, or at least popularised, by Edward Irving, the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church in the early 1800s. Irving of course was an influence on Darby (founder of dispensationalism). Irving is an interesting character. He was apparently funded and promoted by Henry Drummond, Jr, who it turns out was a very powerful and influential Scottish banker (his family loaned King George the money to pay for the Hessian mercenaries the British used during the War of Independence, and those Hessians comprised about 50% of the British military forces in America). The Drummond family helped get the Rothschild family going in the international banking business, apparently. While the Drummonds loaned the British crown the money to pay for the Hessian soldiers, the Hessians were ruled by King George's cousin who's banker was Mayer Rothschild. The Rothschilds at the time were also buying textiles to supply uniforms to the Hessian mercenaries during the War, and the Drummond family apparently was also heavily involved in the Scottish textile industry.

The Drummonds were also allied with the family who's most important member was the guy in charge of the British payroll for the soldiers fighting in America. Can't remember his name at the moment. In other words, the Drummonds and the Rothschilds were in business together. The Rothschilds were also interested in starting what would become known as Zionism.

Zionism was first really being spearheaded in London by the "Society for the Promotion of Christianity Among the Jews", aka the "Jews' society of London". The Drummonds were involved in that organisation. And, Henry Drummond supported and financed Edward Irving, and even supplied the moneys to start Irving's Catholic Apostolic Church. Drummond was named one of the "12 Apostles" of the CAC.

Irving's main contribution to religion seems to be his doctrine that "earthly things belong to the Jews, and heavenly things belong to the church" (the old Jew vs Gentile/Israel vs the Church dichotomy made famous by dispensationalism), and his doctrine that all the churches were becoming entirely apostate and would be totally destroyed by God's wrath. Once the christian church had been destroyed, God's attention would turn to the Jews, re-establish them back in Palestine, and elevate them to rule the world. He also seems to have contributed to early pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.

Apparently, John Darby attended meetings in the early 1800s at Henry Drummond's home, meetings devoted to hammering out prophetic interpretation (the original "Prophecy Club"). So there is a connection between Drummond and Darby, as well as between Irving and Drummond, and Irving and Darby (all three attended prophecy meetings at Drummond's home).

There is quite a bit of speculation that Drummond was also a Rosicrucian. Rosicrucianism and Zionism apparently go hand in hand.

So the ideas of dispensationalism, the dichotomy between Jews and Gentile Christians, the idea that Christians go to heaven but God gives the earth to the Jews, etc - what appears to the be major doctrinal foundation of opposition to Biblical theonomy - have their origins in a political and philosophical movement in the late 1700s and early 1900s, which itself gave birth to Zionism.

[Amanah]

Your eschatology informs your worldview

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Is it impossible for man to be as pure as Christ?

Absolutely- this side of heaven.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

Absolutely- this side of heaven.

That’s not what 1 John 3:3 says.

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That’s not what 1 John 3:3 says.

"
"purifieth", ongoing always. Who is perfect enough to judge on this earth now. Certainly I am not.....do you think you are?

[Aquila]

How would a "Christian Reconstructionist civil government" deal with Christians like me who deny that any earthly civil government is our final authority, including any so called "Christian" government? And who also preach against it being the "kingdom of God", and that it is just a Protestant "beast" power, no different than the other tyrannous religious governments of the past?