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  #341  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:26 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
EPIC! lol
Steve called my house years ago.

He got my wife on the phone and asked her if she and I were post trib.

My wife quickly handed me the phone.

Steve then asked me if I was post Trib, he asked if my pastor was post trib. I said But of course mon frere . He then informed me that I was persona non grata! He also believes that you must grow a beard whether you like it or not.
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  #342  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:38 PM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Steve called my house years ago.

He got my wife on the phone and asked her if she and I were post trib.

My wife quickly handed me the phone.

Steve then asked me if I was post Trib, he asked if my pastor was post trib. I said But of course mon frere . He then informed me that I was persona non grata! He also believes that you must grow a beard whether you like it or not.
At least he has a Gibson. Double humbuckers just make that heavy blues sound what it is.
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  #343  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:42 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
At least he has a Gibson. Double humbuckers just make that heavy blues sound what it is.
First thing he ever sent me was his first tape.

It sounded like Steppenwolf.
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  #344  
Old 07-03-2018, 12:26 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*Based upon this “general” definition, do you assert that if a woman has hair just “past the shoulder” it is classified as “long,” but if a man has hair “to the shoulder” he is still guilty of not having “short” hair?
Whatever a specific length is classified or called, it is the same for a man or a woman.

In 1 Cor 11.6, however shorn hair is defined, it is the same for a man or a woman. But in the man's case it would be acceptable, while we see from Paul's words here, that in the woman's case it would be shameful.

In 1 Cor 11.14-15, however long hair is defined, it is the same for a man or a woman. But in the man's case, we see from Paul's words here, that it would be dishonorable to him, while in the woman's case, it would be a glory to her.

There is nothing in the passage that would suggest that "shorn" or "has long hair" should be defined differently when referring to males or females. Long hair is the same idea whether speaking of a man or a woman. Shorn hair is the same idea, etc.

I (and Esaias) have noted that if someone defines "shorn hair" simply as "trimmed hair" rather than as something like hair cut short like the average man's of that day, or if someone defines long hair simply as "uncut hair," rather than as something like hair that has been allowed to grow out long like the average woman's of that day, conundrums (others, not I, might be inclined to call them absurdities) appear.

A man or a woman could have what would appear to everyone as exceptionally long hair--let's say the exact same length to their calves--but as long as it was trimmed, the man would still be technically shorn, and so his hair, though from the fleshly perspective would be obviously long, from God's perspective, it would nevertheless be "shorn," and therefore not a shame to him; whereas, for the woman, though from the fleshly perspective it would be obviously long, perhaps quite beautiful and a true ornament, from God's perspective, it would nevertheless be "shorn," and therefore a disgrace to her.

The man could have either a crew cut or, if trimmed, calf-length hair, and both would still be acceptable for him because both, despite all appearances to the contrary, would still be shorn hair from the divine perspective. But the woman could have the most gorgeous calf-length hair, but if trimmed, it would still be unacceptable for her, because despite all appearances to the contrary, it would still be shorn hair from the divine perspective, and therefore a disgrace to her.

So the only time a man's hair would be dishonorable to him is if he never ever cut it after becoming a believer and learning of God's law. Then and only then would he have "long hair," if indeed long hair is merely uncut hair as it appears many on this forum define it. But provided he at least trimmed it, say, every few years, he would still have shorn hair--if indeed "shorn hair" is only trimmed hair.

And if a woman ever trimmed her hair after becoming a believer and learning of God's law, then she never again could be said to have long hair, if indeed "long hair" is simply uncut hair, even if it reached her calves or to the floor. If someone says, no, the moment she starts letting it grow out again, she then is in the state of having long hair again in God's sight, despite how short it may appear to the carnal eye, and would remain in that state unless she cut it again, then it seems that a man, as long as his hair is growing out in between cuts would be in the state of having long hair, despite how short it may appear to the carnal eye.

Paul is writing to a church in the Roman city of Corinth. When he mentions shorn and long hair, he speaks of what they would be familiar with and what they understood by these terms. Attached are some sculptures of Roman men and women around the first century AD.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 370005718.jpg (15.2 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Antalya_museum_Faustina.jpg (88.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg b331193e88ec5b37d9471d64a6ede11df57eece4.jpg (64.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg cvc_image_3.jpg (75.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Josephus.jpg (19.6 KB, 3 views)
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  #345  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:28 AM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
He’s guilty? I wasn’t going that intense with it. Lol! His hair is long.
*So if a Christian woman has hair past her shoulders she’s got “long hair,” but if it’s just “to the shoulder” it’s not considered “long?” Got it - clear as mud !
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  #346  
Old 07-03-2018, 04:49 AM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
In 1 Cor 11.6, however shorn hair is defined, it is the same for a man or a woman. But in the man's case it would be acceptable, while we see from Paul's words here, that in the woman's case it would be shameful.

In 1 Cor 11.14-15, however long hair is defined, it is the same for a man or a woman. But in the man's case, we see from Paul's words here, that it would be dishonorable to him, while in the woman's case, it would be a glory to her.

There is nothing in the passage that would suggest that "shorn" or "has long hair" should be defined differently when referring to males or females. Long hair is the same idea whether speaking of a man or a woman. Shorn hair is the same idea, etc.
*I will respond categorically later this evening, but, for now just want to point out how you argue for differing acceptable hair lengths for men and women in one breath, then turn right around and say that both shorn and long hair are the same for both men and women (?).

*For the life of me I simply cannot understand how someone can actually quote the specific verses that demonstrate that what can be applied to one gender would be unacceptable for the other - to argue that there is no difference between hair length applications for the opposing genders.

*Back soon for a more exhaustive response.
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  #347  
Old 07-03-2018, 06:32 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*So if a Christian woman has hair past her shoulders she’s got “long hair,” but if it’s just “to the shoulder” it’s not considered “long?” Got it - clear as mud !
I’m a mechanic, and there is a little something call SPECIFICATIONS.
Without a baseline of measurement you couldn’t gap a spark plug.
Long is opposed to short. Big to little. Where is the baseline? This discussion is starting to become a maze. I asked how biology was supposed to determine a measurement. That obviously didn’t go to far. Hence grow and not to grow is the simplest. You couldn’t adjust a clutch cable without a measurement or send a rocket into space and have it return. But we are to believe that long in the GREEK Diaspora Judean Church had some mysterious mean void of a baseline?
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  #348  
Old 07-03-2018, 07:52 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
I’m a mechanic, and there is a little something call SPECIFICATIONS.
Without a baseline of measurement you couldn’t gap a spark plug.
Long is opposed to short. Big to little. Where is the baseline? This discussion is starting to become a maze. I asked how biology was supposed to determine a measurement. That obviously didn’t go to far. Hence grow and not to grow is the simplest. You couldn’t adjust a clutch cable without a measurement or send a rocket into space and have it return. But we are to believe that long in the GREEK Diaspora Judean Church had some mysterious mean void of a baseline?
Thayer
κομάω
1) to let the hair grow, have long hair
Part of Speech: verb
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  #349  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:39 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*I will respond categorically later this evening, but, for now just want to point out how you argue for differing acceptable hair lengths for men and women in one breath, then turn right around and say that both shorn and long hair are the same for both men and women (?).

*For the life of me I simply cannot understand how someone can actually quote the specific verses that demonstrate that what can be applied to one gender would be unacceptable for the other - to argue that there is no difference between hair length applications for the opposing genders.

*Back soon for a more exhaustive response.
I think what is being said is not that "there is no difference between hair length applications for the opposing genders", but that komao is a term with the same definition for either men or women, and that thus for men it is a shame but for women it is a glory. Same term, same definition, different result. Sort of like saying my wife likes onions, but they are bad for me (indigestion). Same onion, same term, same definition, but different applications.
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  #350  
Old 07-03-2018, 08:41 AM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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*So if a Christian woman has hair past her shoulders she’s got “long hair,” but if it’s just “to the shoulder” it’s not considered “long?” Got it - clear as mud !
You asked and I gave you the determining factor today.
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