UPCI's Randy Hollis Throws Down the Gauntlet: The Emancipation of Isaac

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I know what conservatives teach. I went to a conservative UPC church for 4 years and I obeyed them that had the rule over me as unto the Lord.

Dan, what was Paul's answer to them that believed they couldn't eat meat? He didn't condemn them nor did he tell them that they had to eat meat. He explained what He believed from the Lord. But then, interestingly he said he would eat no meat so as not to offend his weaker brother. Paul didn't shove his liberty (to eat meat) in the other's face. There is an attitude of the heart that is important here. I believe Romans 14 can be applied to holiness standards.

Here's another example: Say a newly born again brother works out, stays in good physical shape and is very muscular. He usually wears short sleeved or no sleeved shirts but has noticed women commenting on his physique. He feels like he is distracting to women, maybe even a to the point of temptation to women and feels that he should wear long sleeves so as not to be a hinderance to the sisters in the church. Maybe he even feels the Spirit of the Lord in leading him to wear long sleeves. Now an older saint who is not as well built wears short sleeves and in no way feels like he is attracting undue attention to himself and continues to wear short sleeves shirts. Maybe things are not as cut and dry as you want them to be. But neither brother should enforce their view on the other.

Dan, read Romans 14 carefully.


1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks


10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:


19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Dan, we need to support our weaker brothers.

Reading of Romans 14:

1. Paul clearly defines eating meat is not a sin or unclean

Is Romans the Word of God or not?

2. The judging as to who is wrong based on their convictions goes both ways. We are not despise the person based on personal convictions.

... This means whoever is practicing or not practicing the "standard" in question should not disfellowship or judge their brother.

Also, Paul is stating that an individual can have personal convictions ... I have stated this view in this thread several times also .... but in no way is he advocating the teaching of false doctrine on the issue of meats by preachers and teachers. He is simply saying to individuals "live and let live".

I'm not telling someone to wear pants in this thread ... I'm stating it's not sinful ... As Paul did here w/ meat in Romans. He's clear and definitive on the issue ...

He was so adamant on this issue that he went to Jerusalem to have it clarified .... and taught throughout the epistles that those proselytized salvational law-abiding were false teachers... in false doctrine. Was he judging his brother?

3. He is not advocating a let the "Holy Spirit be your guide" doctrine .... and then later judging those that do or don't eat meat based on his own personal conviction ... as is the case w/ the clothesline standards crowd.

He's saying love and don't judge your brother even if he's keeping an extra-biblical standard .... and don't judge and love your brother who is not holding your extrabiblical standard .... but in no way does this inhibit him to clearly defining the standard as a minister and teacher in relation to how God views it.

4. I'll stand by my weaker brother and fellowship w/ them .... will they fellowship w/ those who don't hold their Holinesss views .... NOT!!!!!

I believe your efforts in this thread are mistargeted, Mizpeh

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Reading of Romans 14:

1. Paul clearly defines eating meat is not a sin or unclean

Is Romans the Word of God or not?

2. The judging as to who is in sin based on their conviction goes both ways. They are not despise the person.

... This means whoever is practicing or not practicing the "standard" in question should not disfellowship or judge their brother.

Paul is stating that an individual can have personal convictions ... I have stated this view in this thread several times also .... but in no way is he advocating the teaching of false doctrine on the issue of meats by preachers and teachers. He is simply saying to individuals "live and let live".

I'm not telling someone to wear pants in this thread ... I'm stating it's not sinful ... As Paul did here w/ meat in Romans. He's clear and definitive on the issue ...

He was so adamant on this issue that he went to Jerusalem and taught throughout the epistles that those proselytized salvational law-abiding were false teachers... in false doctrine. Was he judging his brother?

3. He is not advocating a let the "Holy Spirit be your guide" doctrine .... and then later judging those that do or don't eat meat based on his own personal conviction ... as is the case w/ the clothesline standards crowd.

4. I'll stand by my weaker brother and fellowship w/ them .... will they fellowship w/ those who don't hold their Holinesss views .... NOT!!!!!

I believe your efforts in this thread are mistargeted, Mizpeh

Great response. I'm still blown away at the level of ignorance on some of these threads. I can't believe some of what I am reading. People will defend anything, even false doctrine to keep from looking into the past and admitting they may have been wrong.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Great response. I'm still blown away at the level of ignorance on some of these threads. I can't believe some of what I am reading. People will defend anything, even false doctrine to keep from looking into the past and admitting they may have been wrong.

That's because if only ONE domino falls, there goes the whole "line." Therefore, the "emporer" is fully clothed no matter what anyone says.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

That's because if only ONE domino falls, there goes the whole "line." Therefore, the "emporer" is fully clothed no matter what anyone says.

You got that right!

I know a pastor who got up and decided he was no longer going to require the woman not to cut their hair, and he announced it from the pulpit, (not that I agree with that tactic)...well, he made so many women mad, "you mean to tell me I could have done it all along, I had to fight with my hair all those years". lol Talk about digging a hole.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Reading of Romans 14:

1. Paul clearly defines eating meat is not a sin or unclean

Is Romans the Word of God or not?

2. The judging as to who is wrong based on their convictions goes both ways. We are not despise the person based on personal convictions.

... This means whoever is practicing or not practicing the "standard" in question should not disfellowship or judge their brother.

Also, Paul is stating that an individual can have personal convictions ... I have stated this view in this thread several times also .... but in no way is he advocating the teaching of false doctrine on the issue of meats by preachers and teachers. He is simply saying to individuals "live and let live".

I'm not telling someone to wear pants in this thread ... I'm stating it's not sinful ... As Paul did here w/ meat in Romans. He's clear and definitive on the issue ...

He was so adamant on this issue that he went to Jerusalem to have it clarified .... and taught throughout the epistles that those proselytized salvational law-abiding were false teachers... in false doctrine. Was he judging his brother?

Paul didn't go to Jerusalem about not eating meat and being vegetarian. If he had, he would have condemned this brother he was referring to in the first few verses of Romans 14. But he never condemned him. Paul went to Jerusalem to resist those who said the Gentiles must be circumcised and keep the law. I agree Paul is clear on the issue of eating meat but what does he tell the Romans to do when and if they encounter someone who believes it is wrong to eat meat?

I agree women wearing women's clothing including women's pants is not sinful. And that wearing jewelry is not sinful in and of itself. But to those who believe it to be sinful, and wear jewelry while not being fully convinced it is okay in God's sight, then to them it is sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

3. He is not advocating a let the "Holy Spirit be your guide" doctrine .... and then later judging those that do or don't eat meat based on his own personal conviction ... as is the case w/ the clothesline standards crowd.

Paul was convinced of the Lord that it was okay to eat meat, while a weaker brother believed it wrong to eat meat. It seems to me that both brothers, Paul and the other, believed according to how they felt impressed by God otherwise the weaker brother would have believed as Paul did.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

Do you think those who preach standards are saying 'let the Holy Ghost be your guide'? and then they judge people according to their own convictions? I think I'm not following you here.

He's saying love and don't judge your brother even if he's keeping an extra-biblical standard .... and don't judge and love your brother who is not holding your extrabiblical standard .... but in no way does this inhibit him to clearly defining the standard as a minister and teacher in relation to how God views it.

Okay, Paul is persuaded/convinced of the Lord that nothing is unclean of itself. He can eat anything. But where do you see Paul in this chapter or anywhere imposing his standard on anyone?

Here is where Paul gets riled up, when someone COMMANDS to abstain from meats or FORBIDS other to marry. Paul chose not to marry but didn't forbid others to do as he did. They are imposing their convictions on others. And this is where you get all in a tizzy!


1Tim 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

4. I'll stand by my weaker brother and fellowship w/ them .... will they fellowship w/ those who don't hold their Holinesss views .... NOT!!!!!

I believe your efforts in this thread are mistargeted, Mizpeh

Okay, Dan, I give...

I'm not going to argue this into the ground. I was under the assumption from what you wrote that sin is sin and there are no grey areas. Paul was convinced he could eat any meat but did not force this belief on others. He encourager the Romans to accept the weaker brother and not to think of themselves as being superior. Paul was willing not to eat meat if it offended a brother. Unfortunately those who lay down certain rules are not as accommodating to their stronger brethren and judge their stronger brethren.
Even though we know these things ought not to be, we don't have despise our weaker brethren nor offend them willingly.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Great response. I'm still blown away at the level of ignorance on some of these threads. I can't believe some of what I am reading. People will defend anything, even false doctrine to keep from looking into the past and admitting they may have been wrong.

If you're talking about me, please direct your comment to me. I'd love to know what false doctrine I may be defending.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If you're talking about me, please direct your comment to me. I'd love to know what false doctrine I may be defending.

More assumptions. I was not referring to you, sir. Actually I think we have more in common than not. I was referring to what I have read as a whole the last few months.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by staysharp

More assumptions. I was not referring to you, sir. Actually I think we have more in common than not. I was referring to what I have read as a whole the last few months.

Mizzy is a missy.

[seguidordejesus]

Living he loved me
Dying he saved me
Buried he carried my sins all away
Rising he justified, freed me forever
One day he's coming back
Oh glorious day

Was this written by a PCIer or is it just bad theology?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

Living he loved me
Dying he saved me
Buried he carried my sins all away
Rising he justified, freed me forever
One day he's coming back
Oh glorious day

Was this written by a PCIer or is it just bad theology?

LOL!