Why Sunday

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The ministration of death is the law written in stone, while the ministration of the Spirit is the law written on the heart. The moral commandments are not being done away with, but the ministration of the Spirit brings life rather than death.

It is not the commandments that are being done away with, but rather a change in ministration.

Yes, if I understand your intention.

Paul clearly showed that the MANNER of utilizing a written code of law and making yourself obey it is what kills, in Romans 7. The Spirit produces the same righteousness that Law tried to produce, but succeeds because it is not stirring up sin in the flesh like self-will stirs up sin when we use our flesh to serve God without strength from the Spirit to do so.

The only thing I would say that you likely disagree with is that sabbath has changed form the shadow to the body, and God does not require us to keep the seventh physical day. All of us know we need to rest. But the ritual aspect of it having to be the seventh day with every detail of how to cook food, etc., is passed, like prohibitions against pork. It's wise in ways to not eat pork, but not violation of Gid's will.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

With this book,which I have frequently reccommended, I am giving you exact pages on an easy-to-access PDF, with the url. (Only problem, Walker is not using the AV, the effect on this discussion looks to be quite minor.). Es suficiente.

If I felt I had much to add to the Walker pages, i would do the whole thing with extracts and additional sources, as I do on many other topics.

Personally, I believe anyone truly interested in the sabbath question will give at least a careful skim to The Law and the Sabbath, more than any other one book.

You especially, mfblume, as Allan Walker deals directly and forcefully with your variety-pack of arguments.

I have read the information that you posted. I didn’t read the book, but I did read the relevant pages that you brought attention to. I understand that time is precious, sometimes it is even more precious than at other times.

I will attempt to state the opinion of the author, and then respond to his opinion with scripture. Brother Avery is right about it being easy to read for yourself, and I would recommend everyone who is really interested to do so. I will say this, the author doesn’t prove the point that he endeavors to prove, in my opinion. I will give an effort to explain his position, and how the scripture fails to support his conclusion, and even clearly contradicts it.

For now I will focus my attention solely on the question of whether the Ten Commandments are the old covenant, or not. Maybe later I will address the other issue. I believe that if the old covenant is the Ten Commandments, and I can clearly prove it to be so, the other points will become moot.

And I do appreciate Brother Avery posting the book in it’s entirety. I will probably read it all later. Sometimes it can be helpful to read another opinion, even if our conclusion about the subject doesn’t change. It is possible to strengthen your own doctrine, without being blown about by the “winds of doctrine”. It is difficult for us to dispute a doctrine, that we don’t even have an understanding of.

I hope I can communicate effectively. I will attempt to clarify while hoping to avoid any further confusion. That can be a tall order.

[Esaias]

TM, if you read this before you make your post, please address the following question in your post:

If the ten commandments ARE the old covenant, then was idolatry wrong before the Ten Commandments were given on Mt Sinai, and for whom was it wrong?

Thanks in advance.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The ministration of death is the law written in stone, while the ministration of the Spirit is the law written on the heart. The moral commandments are not being done away with, but the ministration of the Spirit brings life rather than death.

It is not the commandments that are being done away with, but rather a change in ministration.

[Esaias]

Paul DID NOT say that the law of God was the written law apart from the ten commandments...

I don't recall any of us claiming he said that?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Nothing mysterious.

And remember, I was the one who recommended that you ask about Hebrews 8:13. Since it can be a difficulty for anybody who does not have a clear idea about covenants and the Decalogue. They have to indicate what fits (and when):

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant,
he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

May I suggest that you simply read p. 62-64 of:

The Law and the Sabbath (1953)
Allen Walker
https://www.adventbeliefs.com/assets...alker-1953.pdf
http://www.pwlawrence.com/thebiblepr...TheSabbath.pdf

The section is part of:
Chapter 8 - The Two Covenants - p. 62-68

Thanks!

Thank you for the link. Read the pages you referenced, but will be reading the whole book over the next day or two. Very interesting reading. Again, thanks!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul DID NOT say that the law of God was the written law apart from the ten commandments...

I don't recall any of us claiming he said that?

I'm starting to think there's a bit of confusion here, probably on my part in not understanding the phrasing that some are using.

I have always been suspicious of those who create a distinction between "the law of God" and "the law of Moses", or who might theoretically claim "the law" means "the law minus the ten commandments".

I'd also like to point out that when people say "the ten commandments" there are actually TWO things in view. One, the tables of stone and the words written thereon, and Two, the CONTENT (meaning) of those words. For example, Thou shalt not kill is a series of words written on stone, but it is also a concept expressed by those words. I'm not sure if I'm being clear about that, but it goes to the dual meaning of the Greek word logos, which means not only an expressed word, but the IDEA being expressed by that word. Hope that was clearer than mud lol.

[Tithesmeister]

Allen Walker is the author. His opinion is that the Ten Commandments are NOT the old covenant. My opinion is that the Ten Commandments ARE the old covenant. This is also the opinion of Brother Blume. Brother Avery (and perhaps Esaias) seem to support the author’s view.

One thing is certain, both views can’t be correct, although perhaps both could be wrong.

Allen Walker believes that the Ten Commandments are not the old covenant referred to in Hebrews 8:13. I have repeatedly begged the question;

“If the old covenant is not the Ten Commandments, what IS the old covenant?”

So far, no one has answered this question, until now. Allen Walker did. His answer is that there is ANOTHER old covenant.

He says that before the Ten Commandments were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai (three days before), there was ANOTHER covenant made between God and the Israelites. This is the one (according to him) that was ready to vanish away in Hebrews. To be clear, the author is getting this from Exodus 19, while in Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments are delivered. So, according to him, there were two covenants in three days. Allow me to post some scripture.

Exod.19

[1] In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[2] For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Notice the word covenant, in verse 5 above.

Cont.

[Tithesmeister]

Cont. from above.

Now, to me this is consistent with what we would call a letter of intent today. If I were to offer to build a bridge to Cuba, from Key West (ninety miles) and I proffered a bid to complete the job, the person who I made the offer to, might send a letter of intent saying, we are interested in hiring you to build the bridge, we will be drawing up a contract (covenant) with you to build the bridge. To be clear, the letter of intent, is not a contract (or covenant). It merely expresses interest, or it opens a dialogue.

I believe this is what God was doing here. Basically asking the children of Israel (through Moses) if they would enter covenant with Him. Moses relays the words of God to the people, they agree to enter covenant with God, and Moses relays further instruction from God, for the people to sanctify themselves in preparation for the delivery of the covenant (or to use the analogy of the bridge to Cuba, a contract).

The author of the book asserts that this episode in itself in the nineteenth chapter constitutes a separate covenant. According to him the event of the delivery of the Ten Commandments after the three days of sanctification, is a separate covenant, this separate covenant (before the Ten Commandments) is the one referenced in Hebrews 8 that is ready to vanish away.

I may have to come back to this later. I, like Brother Avery, have limited time.

Cont.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Allen Walker is the author. His opinion is that the Ten Commandments are NOT the old covenant. My opinion is that the Ten Commandments ARE the old covenant. This is also the opinion of Brother Blume. Brother Avery (and perhaps Esaias) seem to support the author’s view.

One thing is certain, both views can’t be correct, although perhaps both could be wrong.

Allen Walker believes that the Ten Commandments are not the old covenant referred to in Hebrews 8:13. I have repeatedly begged the question;

“If the old covenant is not the Ten Commandments, what IS the old covenant?”

So far, no one has answered this question, until now. Allen Walker did. His answer is that there is ANOTHER old covenant.

He says that before the Ten Commandments were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai (three days before), there was ANOTHER covenant made between God and the Israelites. This is the one (according to him) that was ready to vanish away in Hebrews. To be clear, the author is getting this from Exodus 19, while in Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments are delivered. So, according to him, there were two covenants in three days. Allow me to post some scripture.

Exod.19

[1] In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[2] For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Notice the word covenant, in verse 5 above.

Cont.

Thanks for checking the book out.