Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Yes they do allow that Ron even in Texas. The kids they took were abused kids and products of abuse.
I can no longer discuss this topic.
See you on another thread.

cn, sorry this is getting so personal for you. I do enjoy your posts.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

cn, sorry this is getting so personal for you. I do enjoy your posts.

Thank you Stephen.
I will say this, it is NOT ok for even one child to ever be abused in any way. And I am sure no one here believes that it is. But sometimes the separation of church and state is hard to live with.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

You know Stephen I noticed the Amish people I have seen on TV seemed to be very happy and actually have good family lives. I think I saw a documentary once that showed they love God and enjoy the life they live. They work hard but they seem to have a love thy neighbor kind of spirit.

Among the Amish sometimes marriages are arranged and often discipline is rather harsh. The Amish aren't all that saintly. Consider the Amish community in our area, they were running a cocaine ring.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Among the Amish sometimes marriages are arranged and often discipline is rather harsh. The Amish aren't all that saintly. Consider the Amish community in our area, they were running a cocaine ring.

I have not heard of any arranged marriges. Discipline can be harsh - yes.

Some are not saintly - yes.

There were some that got into the cocaine - but it was'nt known or condoned by church leadership prior to the bust, and the main players were not Amish members.

[ChristopherHall]

Here's an example of what I'm worried about....

Donovan King Live
April 17, 2021

Donovan King: Lighthouse Apostolic Church, Huber Heights Ohio. Child Protective Services has taken action against a congregation in Ohio. The children have been removed from their parents and placed into state custody. The parents of this congregation appear to be under the cult-like control of their pastor Rev. Donald Scott. The Reverend Scott teaches that women are forbidden to wear makeup, cut their hair, wear pants, short sleeves, or open toed shoes. Parents are expected to home school their children to keep them from what they call a 'godless' public school system. This Reverend Donald Scott also teaches that homosexuality is an abomination worthy of death in God's sight. Investigations began after extended family members, who are not members of the church, became concerned about young girls being FORCED to wear skirts and dresses during freezing cold weather. One young girl reportedly told her grandmother that she was cold and wanted to wear pants but her parents would become angry. Apparently families in this cult are also admonished to use corporal punishment in the name of 'not sparing the rod'. Some kids have admitted to being spanked or disciplined with paddles, switches, or belts. Young boys are forbidden to participate in sporting events unless they are playing on a church team sanctioned by their 'prophet' Rev. Scott. Parents are also commanded to not only home school their children but to also deprive their children of television, secular music and media. One family suffered from a bitter divorce when their cult leader discovered that the husband had homosexual feelings and commanded that the man 'repent'. The husband and wife divorced soon after Rev. Scott admonished the wife that she divorce her 'unrepentant' husband. The 'prophet' Scott also commanded that the children not be allowed to visit their father or even speak to him without the mother being present. Members of this cult are also required to give at least 10% of their income to the church in addition to giving regular offerings and contributing to 'church projects'. The church is currently preparing to build a $700,000 multipurpose building that will serve as a school and activity center. Besides the 4 cases of confirmed physical abuse in the name of spanking there has been one unverified accusation of possible sexual abuse. ALL the children have been placed in child protective custody until the authorities complete a full investigation.

We have Richard Allen with us. Richard is a licensed child psychologist and cult expert. Richard, thank you for joining us tonight. How do you feel about Child Protective Services taking action against the families of this church?

Richard Allen: Why thank you Donovan, it's nice to be here. First and foremost we have to remember that we have a responsibility to take actions that are in best interest of these children.......

Perception is reality. Often what is perceived as abuse isn't abusive in it's context.

I might be wrong, if I am, and I might be, I'm open to reconsidering what I'm about to say...

In the case of the FLDS community I can see those specific cases of abuse calling for removal of those specific children from their parents with a full investigation following. But what we're seeing is the government rounding up all their children and separating them from all their parents, even in cases where there hasn't been any confirmed or alleged abuse. Certainly not all the children involved have been abused, in addition certainly not every parent has arranged an underage marriage. I can see investigating and taking action in those confirmed cases of abuse...but to take every child in the community from their parents is just crazy to me.

It appears like they are taking what might have been a fake report of abuse to justify their raid. And they are now taking those confirmed cases of abuse as justification to take every child in the community from their parents rather abuse was reportedly taking place or not. I'm hearing wild charges of baby graveyards and even possible murders. I imagine these things may have happened...but it rings of Roman accusations that Christians were cannibals.

Why not only take those individuals and children involved in the confirmed abuse cases and leave those children and parents where no abuse is present alone? Imagine the children of an entire church being rounded up and the government taking them from their parents over one case of abuse. It's just heavy handed to me. Are they really trying to protect these kids or using this as an excuse to break up this religious community? And how far do we want to go in empowering the government to do this kind of thing?

Just some questions and concerns I have. God bless.

[ChristopherHall]

Here's a question I have...what if the alleged call to authorities...was a phony call placed by authorities to justify this police action?

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Sam

It is my understanding that the "innocent until proven guilty" idea is some times suspended in cases where abuse is feared. Children can be removed from a situation if abuse is suspected so that it can be investigated. That's the way the government works and it is within the law.

I can see that. What I think is strange is that ALL the children have been taken from their parents, not just those in which there is evidence of abuse. Imagine you're a member of this community and you were raised in this. You were spiritually married at a legal age of consent. You've raised your kids according to your beliefs and none of your daughters were married off or spiritually married under 17. There are no accusations against you or your spouse and authorities have stated that they have found cases where some parents in this community allowed their children to marry. While the arrangement is definitely strange...you've done no wrong. Yet you're kids are stripped from you and you've been advised to get legal counsel to get your own children back. Certainly those parents who allowed their children to marry or spiritually marry under the age of consent should be separated from their children. What's weird is that they are doing this to all of them. Not just the accused.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Here's a question I have...what if the alleged call to authorities...was a phony call placed by authorities to justify this police action?

Do you see black helicopters?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Here's an example of what I'm worried about....



Perception is reality. Often what is perceived as abuse isn't abusive in it's context.

I might be wrong, if I am, and I might be, I'm open to reconsidering what I'm about to say...

In the case of the FLDS community I can see those specific cases of abuse calling for removal of those specific children from their parents with a full investigation following. But what we're seeing is the government rounding up all their children and separating them from all their parents, even in cases where there hasn't been any confirmed or alleged abuse. Certainly not all the children involved have been abused, in addition certainly not every parent has arranged an underage marriage. I can see investigating and taking action in those confirmed cases of abuse...but to take every child in the community from their parents is just crazy to me.

It appears like they are taking what might have been a fake report of abuse to justify their raid. And they are now taking those confirmed cases of abuse as justification to take every child in the community from their parents rather abuse was reportedly taking place or not. I'm hearing wild charges of baby graveyards and even possible murders. I imagine these things may have happened...but it rings of Roman accusations that Christians were cannibals.

Why not only take those individuals and children involved in the confirmed abuse cases and leave those children and parents where no abuse is present alone? Imagine the children of an entire church being rounded up and the government taking them from their parents over one case of abuse. It's just heavy handed to me. Are they really trying to protect these kids or using this as an excuse to break up this religious community? And how far do we want to go in empowering the government to do this kind of thing?

Just some questions and concerns I have. God bless.

CH it seems this was discussed at length some time ago. But yes I share your concerns. In this case the families were not living in a "compound" either. I think they are crossing the line when they take ALL the children.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Do you see black helicopters?

No. LOL

But in all honesty...I believe in the Bible. I believe that the Bible teaches in the book of Revelation that there will be a global government and that there will be governmental powers that will wage war against the Church. I don't believe this "beast" will form overnight. The mystery of iniquity has been at work behind the scenes since the time of the Apostles and even in their days there were many antichrists. So I believe there is a conspiracy, the Bible implies that much. Now....those involved may be aware that they are preparing the way for their dark messiah. But most likely everyone involved in this conspiracy are simply spiritually blinded to the fact that they are being used by spiritual forces as pawns to prepare the way for the man of sin. Most likely those involved feel like they are patriotic men and women who have society's best interests in mind...but their very actions are led of the god of this world and they are accomplices in the greatest Satanic coup that this world will ever see. Also, I fear that their agenda is clouded by a deeply "moral" and "righteous" appearance, so that if it be possible...they would deceive the very elect.

Hope that clarifies. God bless.

P.S.
Why imply that I'm a conspiracy nut and not consider any validity of my concerns? Don't shoot at me...let's dialogue about the issues brought up.