McMinnville pastor accused in suit of Defamation

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Godsdrummer;1379935][QUOTE]good samaritan;1379878]

The point is that nowhere in scripture do we find anyone standing before an audience teaching or preaching THE WORD OF GOD, this of course does not include proclaiming the good news to the lost, but again this was outside the general meeting of those that were saved. We are to go out and proclaim the good news not get them to come to church in order for a preacher to preach salvation. The examples we have of the early church was that they gathered together and broke bread together, they did not have church as we do today.

I agree to some degree. Do you think we should start selling our possession and let the apostles displace them so that all the church would have things common? I think you are taking the things like the roles of ladies in the church and saying it was cultural. In other words I am understanding that you are saying the early church had multiple pastors and we must be identical to be Biblical. I am understanding you also are saying that the teaching against women in authority, though was cultural and we don't have to be identical to that. It would seem that there is contradiction in the way you are coming to your conclusions.

Again I disagree there was ever a positional, pastor. That would go against Christ teaching on the subject.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Positional leaders have authority only through the word of God. Pastoring is nothing but serving. In most cases pastors are not just bossing people around they are doing all they can to help people stay on track. I am sorry for whatever experience makes you feel like pastors are domineering over people.

Again it is not a positional office, there for a moot point. Both men and women can teach, preach, or prophesy to both men and women, because it is not a position of authority.

A bishop is a position.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence

How do you reconcile this other than saying it was cultural and just don't matter any more. This answer is not good enough for me. If anyone can offer a scriptural answer I will be glad to hear. Sis Alvear I have much respect for her spirit and the work she has done, but I still can't find peace in the scripture about ladies in authority over men. I promise I am not trying to be a chauvinists, but I just can't in good conscious.

This cannot speak of those in positions of leadership for they were ordained after their lives were proven that they were acceptable. The problem is a system that allows for wolves in sheep's clothing to to become leaders.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway

Just because someone is proven doesn't mean they cannot fall. They dealt with similar problems in the early church. Wolves has always been around.

Your are right church government is essential. But church government according to the examples in scripture not the way we do things today.

Your right the system is not broke, we have the wrong system period. I have another example different from you gun control example. Originally our government was "for the people by the people" in which the people placed into government those they felt would best work for the betterment of the people. It worked in the beginning because it was a good system. But the system in the church today does not work because it is not the system of the early church.

Leading back to the original subject of this thread. If church was conducted as it was in the early church this could never have happened, because there was not a singular man in position of authority that could bring shame on the church in general.

I disagree, sometimes the people who are imperfect cause the problems, but the system will work. The wheat and the tares come up together and one day it will get sorted.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The point you seem to be missing, do we have these religious practices today in say America?



Seems to me you went to a lot of trouble to explain the meaning of this passage only to prove to me that these commandments lay down by the council still dealt with a cultural practice of that day. In other words, they rejected the keeping of the Mosaic law, in the very fact that they did not require circumcision. Then only placed on them those things needful in light of their present situation. Abstaining from the idolatrous worship from which they came out of.
Again, I ask you in what manner does this passage apply to you and I today. We did not come out of a religion that offers things unto idols, sexual debauchery etc.
And yes I agree that this passage is not teaching us how to prepare food.

OK, let me explain it this way, if you look at the two thousand years of Christendom you will see that pagan practices were added into Biblical Christianity. While we are dancing around four of them on the list, the apostle gave them enough information to indicate to 1st Century Romans that paganism wasn't going to be baptized into their new found religious worship.
So, since we are talking culture, what happened when this religion pressed on to other parts of the world was it OK to incorporate any other pagan worship just as long as it wasn't found on Acts 15:20's the list?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

OK, let me explain it this way, if you look at the two thousand years of Christendom you will see that pagan practices were added into Biblical Christianity. While we are dancing around four of them on the list, the apostle gave them enough information to indicate to 1st Century Romans that paganism wasn't going to be baptized into their new found religious worship.
So, since we are talking culture, what happened when this religion pressed on to other parts of the world was it OK to incorporate any other pagan worship just as long as it wasn't found on Acts 15:20's the list?

You just said it. In two thousand years pagan practices have been added to Christianity. And I am not dancing around just four of them because in today's society the list is almost innumerable. And that goes to our church hierarchy. This was not as it was in the NT church but added by the pagan practices of RC. Whether you want to believe it or not.
It was the Roman Catholic church that decreed that only certain people had the authority to decipher scripture, not the church. Face it our church hierarchy was passed down to us from the Catholic church, albeit watered down today, but still not biblical.
When Christ said, "there shall not be a singular one over the rest of the body" he meant it. The whole purpose of the church meeting in Acts 15 was because they worked as a unit not singular. Or there would not have been a need for the meeting. Because if you believe the RC teaching, not only was Peter the pastor of the Jerusalem church but the first Pope, he would have simply made the determination himself.

[Sean]

Loren, exactly, that is why the Lord chose a committee of 12 leaders, not just 1 Apostle.(why dont churches(heirarchy's), other than Mormons use 12 today?)

[Sean]

With 12 leaders, if 1 falls, then they can be replaced without the whole thing collapsing in.

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by Sean

Loren, exactly, that is why the Lord chose a committee of 12 leaders, not just 1 Apostle.(why dont churches(heirarchy's), other than Mormons use 12 today?)

Our church uses a council of Elders who collectively pray and make decisions together with the ministry. Some of them are in various forms of ministry, some are just trusted Elders, full of the Holy Ghost and faith.

[Pneuman]

I don't know if we are on the original subject any longer. It seems this thread has taken the Apostolic rabbit trail, as most eventually do. Just a couple of words about the McMinnville issue.

I don't know if anybody else here actually knows Bill and Matt Davies. My wife and I have known them for years, used to attend services at their church occasionally, and hung out with Matt and the Davies girls as young people. My wife grew up with Matt Davies. I think Elder Elpley fellowships with them, or at least with others who do. The Davies' left the UPC around 15-20 years ago. The general reason that was discussed at the time was that Bill Davies wanted to be the Oregon Dist Superintendent, and when he didn't get it he left in a huff. Since I have left the UPC, I know you can't always trust what is floated, so what I do know is he was a great bit more "conservative" than even the rest of the UPC Oregon dist., which is very "conservative" to begin with.

So this Pastor is well known for his extra mean spirit, and for his ultra controlling nature. I could give many examples. The city of McMinnville is full of ex-members of this church that are beat up from the years they attended, and all believe they are bound for hell if they don't return to that church and submit to the abuse of this man. He often uses his pulpit to abuse members of the church. Some friends of ours who were UPC missionaries and long time Pastors and servants in the UPC went to that church after they retired (their daughter attends), and because they were UPS they were verbally abused consistently from the pulpit. We visited with them a couple of times before they passed, and they said it was like being in hell going to that church ... the Pastor demanded that none of the "saints" fellowship with these evil UPC adherents, etc., etc.

After we left the UPC we had several people come back to Jesus in our church who were former members, and some of the stories were almost unbelievable of the kind of abuse that happens from the pulpit in this church ... and if I hadn't heard it from multiple people who were unaffiliated I may have a hard time believing that a man could have this type of power over people.

I believe the issues is not just that people did work around the church for no pay, but that the Davies actually used labor in their personal businesses from church people without pay ... which is a common occurrence in this church. In addition, it wasn't just defamation of character, the Pastor demanded that nobody in the church d business with the man who is suing as well. I think he has a pretty good case. Unfortunately The Davies' have the money to pay for a very good attorney, don't know if the other guy does.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

You just said it. In two thousand years pagan practices have been added to Christianity. And I am not dancing around just four of them because in today's society the list is almost innumerable. And that goes to our church hierarchy. This was not as it was in the NT church but added by the pagan practices of RC. Whether you want to believe it or not.
It was the Roman Catholic church that decreed that only certain people had the authority to decipher scripture, not the church. Face it our church hierarchy was passed down to us from the Catholic church, albeit watered down today, but still not biblical.
When Christ said, "there shall not be a singular one over the rest of the body" he meant it. The whole purpose of the church meeting in Acts 15 was because they worked as a unit not singular. Or there would not have been a need for the meeting. Because if you believe the RC teaching, not only was Peter the pastor of the Jerusalem church but the first Pope, he would have simply made the determination himself.

Yet, one man leadership wasn't found in Acts 15:20, because it wasn't an issue until Diotrephes was φιλοπρωτεύω (one who is ambitious to be first) started to speak against the other "elders." Also throwing out any opposition to his ministerial leadership. Back in those days an apostle just came by and kicked some hind quarters, no one was sued, but the apostle took care of the situation.

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yet, one man leadership wasn't found in Acts 15:20, because it wasn't an issue until Diotrephes was φιλοπρωτεύω (one who is ambitious to be first) started to speak against the other "elders." Also throwing out any opposition to his ministerial leadership. Back in those days an apostle just came by and kicked some hind quarters, no one was sued, but the apostle took care of the situation.

They took care of the situation face to face, one on one .... that is not how this man deals with things ... he rakes people over the coals in front of the church so that "all may learn to fear."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

They took care of the situation face to face, one on one .... that is not how this man deals with things ... he rakes people over the coals in front of the church so that "all may learn to fear."

So, is he all alone now?

Or should I say how many people are still there?