As for me from what I have heard the UPC believes it is a White person marring a black person or vise versa or someone..I do not interpret the scripture as such myself but since you brought it up I would like to know your thoughts
Incredible, KWSS. I have heard of this...but it is certainly not a UPC position or belief. Have there been some with these racists views who happened to be in the UPC? More than likely...sad but true. Is this a "UPC belief"? Absolutely not.
I would wager that this ridiculous, racist rationale predates the UPC and has been used by racists of all ilk.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Well we have had an elder stand up in the church and testify and use that portion of scripture as the proof... She is a white lady taking about how at her work black guys were asking her out on dates I really wanted to stand up and correct her but I bit my tongue....
scott, i too am from ms and for the sake of ambiguity, i will not disclose my name. However, having said that, i was ordained at ms campground 20 years ago by g.r. Travis. K.h. Haney was my pastor for 7 years and i served in his church on pastoral staff.
I was raised in an apostolic home and my father founded 3 churches and was highly respected in his organization. So, i have an apostolic pedigree and am certainly qualified to speak on behalf of many good men who have moved past the teachings of the current upci.
The problem with your statement..."if you don't like the upc, acts 2:38, holiness lifestyle, just leave." is perhaps one of the most arrogant things i have read. The truth is the upci has been highjacked and ram-shacked by men who have been deceptive and ego centric agenda minded. Truthfully, i remember a time when ministers were allowed to have different and opposing views. Diversity is a wonderful thing.One should not be "ejected" and "marginalized" from a movement just because they seek biblical understanding as to "why" certain doctrines are being taught as salvific.
Now, i have no problem with anyone wanting a particular lifestyle. However, the moment we challenge the dress & hair code biblically, it falls quite short and cannot be substantiated. Truthfully, biblical scholars cannot even agree if 1 corinthians 11 is a question or an answer to which we are not privy into the minds of the corinthian elders seeking clarification. One cannot build doctrinal foundation on non-didactic texts. Furthermore, to suggest that those who do not "follow" are somehow eternally lost is damnable at best.
We do not serve christ under the law, we are not living under the old covenant. Herein lies the problem with the upci's currently leadership; they assume they are right and everyone else is wrong. Truth is a person; his name is jesus.
outstanding!
__________________
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Galatians 5:13-15 (NIV)
I know what you're saying. Are you a pastor?? It's not trying to change the heart, it's providing good teaching. Me telling them to repent won't change their heart, but it's giving clear instruction. Me telling them to be baptized won't change their heart, but it's clear instruction. Me telling them to avoid fornication, not to be unequally yoked, etc is not changing their heart, but it's helping and encouraging the heart change. No one forced me to change my heart, God did it. But I sure appreciate the wisdom along the way.
(btw... I found it interesting that it was a big deal and newsworthy that the POTUS was seen with his shirt off. But again, that's my own feelings on the subject. Family, close friends, okay. Public? No. Call is socialization and being cultured I guess)
GP, I am not a pastor. However, I am in leadership in my church and I feel the weight and burden to teach and interact with converts in a way that allows the Holy Spirit to change their hearts. My first goal is to support a new convert and be a godly example to them but I don't know what is going on in their hearts. Only God knows what must be done in the sanctification process. Extra biblical teaching is not something I will dwell on when dealing with a fellow child of God. My goal is to teach about God and his ways.
BTW, my pastor follows this same line of thinking with very good results.
Well we have had an elder stand up in the church and testify and use that portion of scripture as the proof... She is a white lady taking about how at her work black guys were asking her out on dates I really wanted to stand up and correct her but I bit my tongue....
Just ignorance is all this is. The pastor should have corrected her.
GP, I am not a pastor. However, I am in leadership in my church and I feel the weight and burden to teach and interact with converts in a way that allows the Holy Spirit to change their hearts. My first goal is to support a new convert and be a godly example to them but I don't know what is going on in their hearts. Only God knows what must be done in the sanctification process. Extra biblical teaching is not something I will dwell on when dealing with a fellow child of God. My goal is to teach about God and his ways.
BTW, my pastor follows this same line of thinking with very good results.
Delta, I agree that "extra biblical teaching" is not something any of us want to dwell on. However, I don't consider it "extra-biblical" for the older women to teach the younger, and older men teaching the younger. That's very biblical. I'm not advocating unbiblical standards such as make-up, jewelry, uncut hair, etc... but certainly providing advice and wisdom on how a Christian ought to present themselves is within the duties of community. Teaching God and His ways is not so abstract that it never gets close to home. I pity the day.
I've discipled people who voluntarily ask questions concerning what we are talking about. They want to know! It's not creating law, it's sharing wisdom. All within the bounds of being biblical.
Scott, I too am from MS and for the sake of ambiguity, I will not disclose my name. However, having said that, I was ordained at MS campground 20 years ago by G.R. Travis. K.H. Haney was my pastor for 7 years and I served in his church on pastoral staff.
I was raised in an Apostolic home and my father founded 3 churches and was highly respected in his organization. So, I have an Apostolic pedigree and am certainly qualified to speak on behalf of many good men who have moved past the teachings of the current UPCI.
The problem with your statement..."if you don't like the UPC, Acts 2:38, Holiness Lifestyle, just leave." is perhaps one of the most arrogant things I have read. The truth is the UPCI has been highjacked and ram-shacked by men who have been deceptive and ego centric agenda minded. Truthfully, I remember a time when ministers were allowed to have different and opposing views. Diversity is a wonderful thing. One should not be "ejected" and "marginalized" from a movement just because they seek biblical understanding as to "why" certain doctrines are being taught as salvific.
Now, I have no problem with anyone wanting a particular lifestyle. However, the moment we challenge the dress & hair code biblically, it falls quite short and cannot be substantiated. Truthfully, biblical scholars cannot even agree if 1 Corinthians 11 is a question or an answer to which we are not privy into the minds of the Corinthian elders seeking clarification. One cannot build doctrinal foundation on non-didactic texts. Furthermore, to suggest that those who do not "follow" are somehow eternally lost is damnable at best.
We do not serve Christ under the law, we are not living under the Old Covenant. Herein lies the problem with the UPCI's currently leadership; they assume they are right and everyone else is wrong. Truth is a person; His name is Jesus.
Staysharp, you mentioned having moved past the teachings of the UPC. As a person who has left do you feel that you have progressed down the slippery slope into false doctrine and how do you feel about the UPC now that you are looking from the outside?
Well, I have listened to this message and I am very disturbed by the confrontational and offensive nature of his delivery. He's condescending, arrogant and stretching the truth. I am sorry, but this is where I draw the line. It's not worth listening to. He's playing to the emotions of people's fears.
The gospel is not preached. This is fear based preaching.
Very well explained staysharp. I agree with your post as a whole, but the statement that "One cannot build doctrinal foundation on non-didactic texts" is particularly important in discussing the matters at hand.
I hope that Pastor Phillips will take the time to stop by and give his opinion on your post. I also hope he'll clear up some vague generalities that started this thread.
Delta, I agree that "extra biblical teaching" is not something any of us want to dwell on. However, I don't consider it "extra-biblical" for the older women to teach the younger, and older men teaching the younger. That's very biblical. I'm not advocating unbiblical standards such as make-up, jewelry, uncut hair, etc... but certainly providing advice and wisdom on how a Christian ought to present themselves is within the duties of community. Teaching God and His ways is not so abstract that it never gets close to home. I pity the day.
I've discipled people who voluntarily ask questions concerning what we are talking about. They want to know! It's not creating law, it's sharing wisdom. All within the bounds of being biblical.
In a church operating within Christ love and pure motives this is the way it should be. However, many times there will be someones who is the enforcer of certain "holiness standards" and their motives are not always pure. Many times this enforcer is not a very good christian or has been so offended by personal experiences that they push their offense on the next generation. I have seen many who because they were sinful growing up that they expect eveyone to be sinful like them. They were never perfected in Christ love and these types have been known to flourish within the safe haven of the holiness movements. These types have been documented in almost every denomination.
We can always learn from our elders and their wisdom is priceless.
Linear Mode
