You Can Fake It All

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

Yes, I've said that in several posts towards the beginning of this thread. I've never claimed it didn't happen.

It happens in every single church, organization, denomination. Anyone, anywhere, in ANY place can fake whatever.

Since you missed it, there are several posts in which I've said people can fake it:

Okay, so you are not denying that the formula can be faked. We agree.

There is no way I would call UPC'ers fakers as a whole. That is simply not true.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ILG

Some good points, KBTW!

So, if people fake religion because of their fear of hell, and if this religion put man-made rules onto people that are not necessarily needed the man-made rules in a sense inadvertently help keep people that are faking hidden. The man-made rules could potentially make it harder to discern a faker. What do you think?

Actually, I believe I have found the answer to this question in a book I am currently reading. I would highly suggest it to all involved in this discussion. There is no way I could portray the message as poignantly as the author of this book does. The book is called "Power of the Spirit" and was written by William Law back in the 1700s (the book I am reading has been edited by Dave Hunt).

This book was written by William Law well over 300 years ago, but it seems even more relevant today, than it was then. His basic premise in the book is this... all life issues boil down to this one root cause... man's will versus God's will.

You see, in the garden, Eve reasoned with her will against the will of God, and we all know the consequences of that. Man was given a free will and choice by God. Our choice is to believe in our own will, or to believe in the will of God. God gave the Israelites his law, as that is what they wanted, a written law. But you see, even with that written law, they failed, because they still chose their own will and reasoning, over God.

The only way we will ever find relief from the destruction of believing that our own way is best, is to fall into the arms of Christ, and to acknowledge our need of Him, and to live walking in the Spirit of Christ, which is the only thing that can take us from rule-makers and breakers, to overcomers.

Rules will never change our hearts. Laws won't either. It is only allowing the spirit of Christ to come into our hearts, and to completely reign in our lives that will bring the transformation and overcoming power.

So, in closing... rules, of any kind, or sort, even in the best of intentions, will always fail man... they have failed us since the garden, and still are.

The only life changing force that can change a man's heart from the inside out is the Spirit of Christ living, and reigning in our lives.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Wow... isn't this a hot thread! Was outside enjoying the sunshine, while things were heating up in here.

Honestly... n David... can't you just admit that religion/salvation can be faked? Prax... good to see that you acknowledge this.

..

That was never David's problem nor mine. I admitted it several pages ago.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Yes, I've said that in several posts towards the beginning of this thread. I've never claimed it didn't happen.

It happens in every single church, organization, denomination. Anyone, anywhere, in ANY place can fake whatever.

Since you missed it, there are several posts in which I've said people can fake it:

Ok, great, sorry that I missed that

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't believe it was an entirely dumb thread. Salvation..can be faked. Even in the early church..Jesus talked about Wolves. Others talked about men coming in amongst us

I think the intent of this threads origination isn't about false salvation, really, it's all about look how fake the UPC can be. The intent of this thread is dumb. I also think the ILG is getting exactly the attention she wants.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

God gave the Israelites his law, as that is what they wanted, a written law. But you see, even with that written law, they failed, because they still chose their own will and reasoning, over God.

I remember the Israelites asking for a king, but not asking for a written law. Do you have a reference for that? I would be interested.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

Okay, so you are not denying that the formula can be faked. We agree.

I've never said it couldn't be. I just believe it's far fewer that you probably believe. The overwhelming majority of UPC people who follow the "UPC formula" are good, honest and sincere believers. I'm just not willing to condemn an entire organization over a few who may be faking it. I see it how it is, the few who fake it are the problem...NOT the entire organization.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by n david

I've never said it couldn't be. I just believe it's far fewer that you probably believe. The overwhelming majority of UPC people who follow the "UPC formula" are good, honest and sincere believers. I'm just not willing to condemn an entire organization over a few who may be faking it. I see it how it is, the few who fake it are the problem...NOT the entire organization.

I also believe that the majority are sincere believers.

Here is what this thread is about:

The title of this thread is not UPC'ers are fakers. The title of this thread is you can fake it all. This we agree upon. This stands for any church organization that uses an external code for measuring whether someone is "in" or "out" of the kingdom of God.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by ILG

I remember the Israelites asking for a king, but not asking for a written law. Do you have a reference for that? I would be interested.

Ex. 19:3-8
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.

8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.


The Israelites asked Moses to return to the Lord and to say "all that you have spoken we will do." That is when the 10 commandments was first given to Moses, after the children of Israel agreed to do all that the Lord had spoken.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

I also believe that the majority are sincere believers.

Here is what this thread is about:

The title of this thread is not UPC'ers are fakers. The title of this thread is you can fake it all. This we agree upon. This stands for any church organization that uses an external code for measuring whether someone is "in" or "out" of the kingdom of God.

Yes, the title was great until we read the very first line...

"It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it."

From that point on it becomes "UPC Can Fake It All." There are 4 direct references to the UPC, and the rest is about the "UPC formula" of repentance, water baptism, infilling of the Holy Ghost and its belief on standards.

There's a passing acknowledgement that it happens in all churches:

"The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out"."

The difference here is you give the other churches an out by claiming they don't measure who's "in" or "out."

Other than that, the opening post was about "UPC Can Fake It All."