Pastors, how do you handle it when...

[Theresa]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Just to be clear...this is not regarding any man in our church, nor am I questioning any action my pastor has taken on any such issue. Just to remove any discomfort some might feel at discussing this....

revr...what do you think about what I said about men learning how to be strong leaders/providers at home? Do you think that has some correlation to their strength as a Christian overall, or their potential contribution to the church or the strength of the local assembly?

It seems to me if men are weak leaders, lazy providers, or abusive, that it can bleed over into the church setting and produce a weak church environment, or one in which women feel the need to step in and produce better leadership.

AND - on that note - when the woman has to "step in" and lets say, be the spiritual leader as well as the provider for the family - it's an unnatural balance in the home and it DOES NOT WORK.

But what are you supposed to do??? The woman CANT not step up and provide for the family, she cant NOT be the strong one and insist her family be faithful to church...AND the pastor CANNOT force a grown man to do anything..

He cant counsel with the man if the man wont be counseled. He can preach it from the pulpit but he CANNOT make the man do it.

What DO you do?? A woman being the head of the family, DOES NOT WORK....what do you do?


You cant shoot the husband! and you cannot change who he really is...

Originally Posted by revrandy

A learned Behavior is often impossible to break... unless the Holy Ghost is allowed to release them from it..

I too am a Big proponent of Professional Counseling...

Randy: The only way behavioral patterns are broken is through complete and total surrender. There isn't any else that works. Even with "speaking in tongues" and shouting, all that does is excite the spirit and create more abuse when the couple gets home.

As we surrender our lives to the Lord, He and He alone can change us. An unsurrendered soul will remain abusive.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

This is a very serious issue.

1. Provision:
In I Timothy 5:8 is one of the strongest statements in the Bible: "If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever (infidel)," (RSV).

I believe a man who is lazy and will not provide for his family is lost and headed to Hell. He is as lost as two boys kissing. The perversion stems from the same root of homosexuality - selfishness.

What is an infidel? The Greek word translated "infidel" is apistos, meaning "faithless, unbelieving, without faith."

Good points. I agree. I think these are sinful behaviors. (laziness, not providing for family)

2. Care
Providing for one's family involves more than just monetary support. It involves providing a safe and secure emotional "home" as well. Physical, emotional, or verbal abuse would destroy any hope of the home as a safe haven.

True, and I have seen some men who provide monetarily, but otherwise they're neglectful, and in some cases outright abusive. So providing has to be more than just a roof over their heads. On the flip side, I've seen some of the nicest, laid back, "fun" dads...whose big downfall was...not providing financial support.

3. Pastoral response to dead-beats.
I have publicly rebuked twenty-something males in the church I pastor who refused to get a real job. I have told them not to offer any advice as to the direction of the church if they were not even providing for themselves. I have told them they were not eligible to be in any leadership position because of their lack of initiative.

I wish you had put something in your post I could object to. LOL. I agree, men who don't provide for their families, shouldn't be in positions of leadership. I do think its important to note that "provision" doesn't necessarily mean "providing wealth", but rather, providing necessities, and working hard in general.

Domestic abuse is not something I wade into. I have a certified Christian counselor that I refer those issues to. Our church tries to cover a portion of the associated fees for such services to hurting families.

I will say that I would call the authorities if I knew any man or woman was beating their spouse. I wouldn't think twice about it. Any male that would hit a woman is a despicable excuse for a human life form.

BTW, I teach biblical family structure on a consistent basis.

Its very important. I wish more churches offered marital classes or family classes. (Parenting, financial planning, etc)

It just seems to me that if men are full of integrity, and can learn how to care for and lead their own families, following godly principles, that those leadership skills will naturally allow better leadership in the church.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Good points. I agree. I think these are sinful behaviors. (laziness, not providing for family)



True, and I have seen some men who provide monetarily, but otherwise they're neglectful, and in some cases outright abusive. So providing has to be more than just a roof over their heads. On the flip side, I've seen some of the nicest, laid back, "fun" dads...whose big downfall was...not providing financial support.



I wish you had put something in your post I could object to. LOL. I agree, men who don't provide for their families, shouldn't be in positions of leadership. I do think its important to note that "provision" doesn't necessarily mean "providing wealth", but rather, providing necessities, and working hard in general.



Its very important. I wish more churches offered marital classes or family classes. (Parenting, financial planning, etc)

It just seems to me that if men are full of integrity, and can learn how to care for and lead their own families, following godly principles, that those leadership skills will naturally allow better leadership in the church.

Recommended Resources:

Hiding from Love: Dr. Henry Cloud
Changes that Heal; Dr. John Townsend.
Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries

Mrs. B do you really agree with a pastor openly rebuking people publically?
www.cloudtownsend.com

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

I do. There are a myriad of reason a wife/spouse would reenter or stay in an abusive enviornment. Some of the following reasons may or may not be applicable due to the age of the abused and how long they have been in this situation.

The first trick of an abuser is to isolate his spouse from any outside influence, thus removing any threat of intervention.

If the wife was raised in an abusive enviornment and witnessed this behavior during her developmental years from her parents, she would consider this love/hate relationship to be normal and would continue in it until it became ingrained in her personality and would continue to embrace it. Any intervention would be perceived by her as an intrusion into her lifestyle and would be threatened by it. Thus defending the abuser.

If the wife was not raised in an abusive/dysfunctional enviornment, she would be more prone to seek help, albeit there may be children involved/finances, etc. and she would make sacrifices for her children based upon her perception of her own self-worth and whether or not the risk of leaving the abuser is justified in her own mind depending on the varied degrees of abuse and how much the home can withstand.

Many times a spouse becomes an "enabler" by working against the situation and her behavior precipitates more abuse. I would recommend for any spouse to seek professional counseling from a well trained caring christian counselor.

There's is the added complication that many abusers are con-artists...which allows for their private abuse of children and spouse to continue virtually unseen by the outside world, and in many cases reports of abuse would be met with disbelief, considering what a "nice guy" this man may be. Many times a woman will leave, only to be showered with love, affection and tearful apologies from her abuser, and she will be convinced that he is a changed man, and give him another chance...and another...and another...and....

Add to that, that most churches frown on separation and divorce, even for legitimate reasons, and sometimes the pressure to reconcile can come from unexpected sources, including parents, in-laws and even pastors.

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Randy: The only way behavioral patterns are broken is through complete and total surrender. There isn't any else that works. Even with "speaking in tongues" and shouting, all that does is excite the spirit and create more abuse when the couple gets home.

As we surrender our lives to the Lord, He and He alone can change us. An unsurrendered soul will remain abusive.

Amen...

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Recommended Resources:

Hiding from Love: Dr. Henry Cloud
Changes that Heal; Dr. John Townsend.
Boundaries in Marriage
Boundaries

Mrs. B do you really agree with a pastor openly rebuking people publically?
www.cloudtownsend.com

Well, I don't particularly like it, but I can see where it might be needful, especially if there is a case of abuse. What do you think?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Cute, I really like you. Maybe we can get together for a cappucino sometime...

There is nothing likeable about me whatsoever. And I only have coffee with my girlfriends.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

There's is the added complication that many abusers are con-artists...which allows for their private abuse of children and spouse to continue virtually unseen by the outside world, and in many cases reports of abuse would be met with disbelief, considering what a "nice guy" this man may be. Many times a woman will leave, only to be showered with love, affection and tearful apologies from her abuser, and she will be convinced that he is a changed man, and give him another chance...and another...and another...and....

Add to that, that most churches frown on separation and divorce, even for legitimate reasons, and sometimes the pressure to reconcile can come from unexpected sources, including parents, in-laws and even pastors.

Ultimately as a pastor, you cannot help people who will not receive it. The best deterrent against abuse is for the pastor to model proper behavior towards his wife/family.

If a pastor abuses the flock, its a clear signal that its ok to abuse his wife.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

There is nothing likeable about me whatsoever. And I only have coffee with my girlfriends.

I see you hold yourself in real high regard. Your self-esteem is through the ROOF!!! I actually think you have great communicative skills and there is a lot in you that is like able.