The Initial Physical Evidence

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

And your evidence of this is what?

Everyone Trintarian I've spoken to on CARM for one who don't think tongues are of the devil.

[Felicity]

What is CARM?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Everyone Trintarian I've spoken to on CARM for one who don't think tongues are of the devil.

Just so we're clear, there are trinitarian Pentecostals on this CARM thing and the ones with whom you've communicated do not believe tongues are the initial evidence? Are there trinitarians on CARM that are not Pentecostal, e.g. Southern Baptists (who often believe tongues are of the devil because they believe the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the death of the Apostles)?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I had read that in their articles of faith, but is that a different experience from being filled with the Spirit?
I'm in a discussion with someone by email that is questioning this very thing and he claims the infilling is different from baptism and that the disciples received the Spirit when Christ breathed on them after his resurrection.

Yes, I think you're right. The Assemblies of God distinguish between being filled with the Holy Spirit and "baptized in the Holy Spirit." It is the baptism in the Holy Spirit which must be immediately followed by tongues.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I had read that in their articles of faith, but is that a different experience from being filled with the Spirit?
I'm in a discussion with someone by email that is questioning this very thing and he claims the infilling is different from baptism and that the disciples received the Spirit when Christ breathed on them after his resurrection.

I disagree with both statements and have shown why by scripture. He finds it difficult to believe someone must speak in tongues as the definite sign of receiving the Holy Ghost for a few reasons: the scriptures that teach we are saved by grace through faith in Rom and Gal and there are people who seek and seek and never seemed to speak in tongues, and this teaching is not found in the epistles.

What do you think?

The AOG and many other trinitarian Pentecostal organizations teach that there is a second work of grace they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It occurs subsequent to salvation and the "initial evidence" of it is speaking in tongues. It is believed to be the promise given in Acts 1:8.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Felicity

What is CARM?

It's a Trinitarian Evangelical Apologetics site that has a huge discussion board. One forum is esp for Oneness Pentecostals.

http://www.carm.org/

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

Just so we're clear, there are trinitarian Pentecostals on this CARM thing and the ones with whom you've communicated do not believe tongues are the initial evidence? Are there trinitarians on CARM that are not Pentecostal, e.g. Southern Baptists (who often believe tongues are of the devil because they believe the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the death of the Apostles)?

yes, to both of your questions. I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son. Then they quote verses from 1John.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son.

What does that mean, eternal son? What do you believe that they feel is wrong?

[Sam]

"filled" with the Spirit is a pretty broad term.

Folks in the Old Testament were "filled" with the Spirit or "full" of the Spirit like Joshua (Deut 34:9) and Gideon (Judges 6:34) and Bezalel (Ex 31:1-5).
John the Baptist was "filled" with the Holy Spirit before birth (Luke 1:15, 41-44) and so were his parents Elizabeth and Zechariah (Luke 1:41, 67). The Apostle Peter said that the Spirit of Christ was in the OT prophets (1 Peter 1:11).

Jesus told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they were baptized in the Spirit. This Spirit baptism is similar to water baptism i.e. an immersion, saturation, overwhelming, soaking, etc). On the Day of Pentecost it says they were filled (Acts 2:4). Then later it is said that Peter was "filled" while addressing the Jewish leaders (Acts 4:8) and still later a whole group of them were filled as they prayed (Acts 4:31). Filling can and does happen many times. In Ephesians 1:13 it says the Ephesian believers had been sealed with the Holy Spirit but Paul exhorts them to "be filled" or "keep getting filled" or "be ongoingly filled" with the Spirit in Eph 5:18.

As someone else has pointed out there are many operations of the Holy Spirit on us like
regeneration or birthing
filling and refilling
baptism in the Spirit
etc

Many folks have been saved/regenerated (born of the Spirit) before they were baptized in the Spirit.

[Sam]

A journey through the Book of Acts shows several times people were
filled with the Spirit
received the Spirit
Spirit came upon them
Spirit fell upon them
baptized in the Spirit.

Some times speaking with tongues is mentioned and some times not.
Because speaking with tongues is mentioned some times, some folks have deduced that tongues should happen every time and if a person has not spoken in tongues he has not been baptized in the Spirit.

Some folks believe that when the Spirit comes upon, or overwhelms, or baptizes/immrses a person, the gifts are released and speaking with tongues and/or prophecy will "follow," perhaps immediately or maybe later. Some use Mark 16 for this where it says that tongues is one of the signs that will "follow" believers.

Most of us who consider ourselves Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charismatic believe that speaking or praying with tongues indicates that a person has been baptized in the Spirit. I don't know how large a percentage that would be.