A treatise on the upc.

[kenj]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do you attend any certain local or House Church today? Are you still Oneness? Pentecostal?

I appreciate your interest but why does it matter?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by kenj

I appreciate your interest but why does it matter?

Well it seems part of the story to me. Did your experience with the UPC drive you away from the Pentecostal faith? Did you leave them and continue to follow Christ? What came out of your experience did you find something you think is better if so what?

This all seems normal enough to ask on a discussion forum.

[SiblingRevelry]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I see no indication on his site that he is a Christian. Only the sour testimony of one who once followed men. There are many people like this. Faith in man does not produce salvation.

*sigh*

I know Jeff personally--I've known him since about 1994. He and I have crossed swords on certain things in the past. It's rather a shock to hear him described in terms like this: "sour testimony," etc. And I should note that Jeff and I have crossed swords in the past, sometimes very violently. (There was a several year period when we didn't even acknowledge each other's existence.)

Jeff is an exceptionally dedicated and dogged man. When he discovered in early 1996 that a young woman (Lisa McPherson) had likely been killed through the bad actions of her religious group (Scientology), he pursued it and got the information out there. Jeff is a huge reason why Scientology's more like the punch line of a joke today rather than an malign and influential cult as it was growing to be in the 1990s.

I can certainly understand where Jeff's coming from because I went through a similar (in the overall contours) experience at about the same time in a different part of the country. In some respects, I'm probably more "bitter" and "sour" about my experience than Jeff.

Apostolics have got to get over judging people for their experiences and taking a closer look. Just as human beings are not perfect, not every work done by Apostolics is perfect either.

And, for the record, the scholarship mentioned is not very radical at all, in fact, it's been standard in universities for the last century. And no, the KJV is not the most accurate version; we have more and better manuscripts for review than at the beginning of the 17th century.

I'm tempted to tell Jeff this thread is here (we hang out together on the same chat channel pretty much every night with a group of friends--and have been doing so since, oh, about 1995ish), but I don't think I will. I do believe he knows some Apostolics (back in the day it was Pentecostals) will not agree with his experience.

[kenj]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well it seems part of the story to me. Did your experience with the UPC drive you away from the Pentecostal faith? Did you leave them and continue to follow Christ? What came out of your experience did you find something you think is better if so what?

This all seems normal enough to ask on a discussion forum.

OK, sounds fair enough.

I was fortunate in that before I came upon the UPC in my hometown I was already a determined anti-Trinitarian and had also already had the certified 'Holy Ghost Experience'. So I was happy to be in the only church in town where I fit in.

Consequently I can't say I was driven away from the Pentecostal faith since I didn't consider myself necessarily in it.

From the start I went along with things that I didn't agree with but it was only after the negative stuff became unbearable that there was no choice about staying 'in' –or rather giving it money. And in the end money was the only thing that really determined if you were 'in' or 'out' in JY's church. That was certainly proven to me.

The better thing is following Christ, or at least trying to, rather than following the dogmas and directions of a church, or, worse, the dictates of a hypocritical religious tyrant.

I hope that answers your questions?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by kenj

OK, sounds fair enough.

I was fortunate in that before I came upon the UPC in my hometown I was already a determined anti-Trinitarian and had also already had the certified 'Holy Ghost Experience'. So I was happy to be in the only church in town where I fit in.

Consequently I can't say I was driven away from the Pentecostal faith since I didn't consider myself necessarily in it.

From the start I went along with things that I didn't agree with but it was only after the negative stuff became unbearable that there was no choice about staying 'in' –or rather giving it money. And in the end money was the only thing that really determined if you were 'in' or 'out' in JY's church. That was certainly proven to me.

The better thing is following Christ, or at least trying to, rather than following the dogmas and directions of a church, or, worse, the dictates of a hypocritical religious tyrant.

I hope that answers your questions?

Yes it does. It was mostly the properity style money is everything preaching that drove me out of mainline Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches also. I was hoping perhaps you had found a real New Testament Church. Keep pressing on!

[kenj]

Oh, someone else had asked these questions:

I wonder if the Church he attended was Pastored by Jim Yohe who I think started this Forum or at least its forerunner. Yohe was thought of to be ahead of his time among some Pentecostals. Did he oppose what Jacobsen was teaching or did he side with him?

There was the 'pastor', JY, and then there was J (junior), who was maybe three years younger than I was, and still in high school when I first began attending.

JY senior of course blew his stack but J was always nice. I liked J, we used to hang out sometimes.

I went off to college soon after all that, and JY Sr. was thrown out in the meantime, so I never saw J again. I was sorry to see he died so young.

[kenj]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes it does. It was mostly the properity stle money is everything preaching that drove me out of mainline Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches also. I was hoping perhaps you had found a real New Testament Church. Keep pressing on!

Thank you, and best wishes to you as well.


If anyone's interested I wrote a longer piece just a few years ago about Joyce Meyer at...

http://www.joycevsjesus.wordpress.com

It begins by pointing out something that was never remotely taught in JY's UPC –just what salvation by faith means, which Meyer doesn't at all grasp either. In the JY church it was all about following silly rules and pastor's orders –and, most important of all in the end, as you mentioned, forking over the money.

Jeff pointed out to me a book once about the history of the UPC called "Christianity Without the Cross." That title is correct.
Maybe it helped me that I was raised in the Lutheran Church and had a bit of an idea about the principle of faith before I went to the UPC.

I feel really badly for those who leave something like Meyer or the UPC without having learned even what faith means, but it took me forever to get a good understanding of it myself. Maybe that's just how it works.

[Michael The Disciple]

I had hoped to find a home among "Apostolics" after leaving the Pentecostal/Charismatics in the early 80's. Did not work out but I realize more than ever my home is "in Christ".

[FlamingZword]

Enough with this attacks on the UPCI,

No I am not a member of the UPC, so I got nothing to gain by standing up for them.

however I get tired of such a fine organization being attacked, because they have a mote in their eye, while the attackers themselves have logs in their eyes.

I love my brethren in the UPC, even though many of them may think I am a backslidder, lost, an apostate or a heretic.

I let them attack me however much they want, I will not attack them at all, I will just pray for them, for they are my brethren, even thou they reject me.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Enough with this attacks on the UPCI,

No I am not a member of the UPC, so I got nothing to gain by standing up for them.

however I get tired of such a fine organization being attacked, because they have a mote in their eye, while the attackers themselves have logs in their eyes.

I love my brethren in the UPC, even though many of them may think I am a backslidder, lost, an apostate or a heretic.

I let them attack me however much they want, I will not attack them at all, I will just pray for them, for they are my brethren, even thou they reject me.

Im not attacking them more than any other group out there. I do actually know ONE UPC Church that does teach the true foundation doctrine of the Apostles. Generally speaking I think they have Oneness correct. They have Acts 2:38 correct.

I could say many of them truly desire Christ. Yet once beyond those very basic things it seems they have a lot of truth yet to come to.