The Bible: Distributist Economics

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The point is... when God crafted a Government... HE chose a distributist model.

Well I do agree with your assesment of the economics of Israel. Tithes, offerings, giving to the poor was all a part of it. Yet for the most part it seems they were free to try to "get ahead" or to have private property.

Many of us think a little redistribution isnt a bad thing. God had a "safety net" for his people. Yet we see through Pauls teaching if one refused to work we should not enable him by feeding him.

Remember Jesus teachings were a bit radical to us. If one takes your shirt give him your coat. Give to those who ask (except those refusing work) asking nothing again. Give to the ministry, give to the poor.

Americas socialist system is collapsing because we are giving out money we dont have. It would seem the system can only go as far as there is money to pay for it.

Going in debt to give to others? How foolish. We cant solve all the problems EVERYONE has. The poor generally have more faith and hope in Jesus than the rich, they NEED him more. They long for a paradise of happiness and joy as Jesus has promised.

Blessed be the poor for yours is the kingdom of God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Seems to me that I read somewhere that if you would not work you should starve.

The early church provided for those in need among their number. This was in addition to any gleaning rights, storehouse rights, etc. that those needy classes might have been entitled to. However... if one wouldn't work... the church wouldn't assist them. Let them go glean or turn to the storehouse.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Interesting aquilla wants government to enforce giving to poor but not enforce morality suchas same sex marriage only.

I never said that I wanted it... I found it intriguing that GOD chose that model. I see very little wrong with common sense welfare, unemployment, and social security programs. I am for universal health care... but I see issues with how to make it happen. I have friends and family in Canada that I talk to quite a bit. So I do have my leanings towards a single payer system. But all of this in my opinion is best on the state level... IF it is attempted.

As for sex... it's a free country. What people do with regards to their private behaviors and associations is entirely between themselves and God. I do believe that Christians should seek to follow God's Word and the guidence of their elders.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well I do agree with your assesment of the economics of Israel. Tithes, offerings, giving to the poor was all a part of it. Yet for the most part it seems they were free to try to "get ahead" or to have private property.

Amen. Distributism isn't Socialism or Communism. However, it's closest realizations have been among agrarian socialists in the third world.

Many of us think a little redistribution isnt a bad thing. God had a "safety net" for his people. Yet we see through Pauls teaching if one refused to work we should not enable him by feeding him.

Amen. I believe the church should provide immediate assistance to prevent one from becoming a habitual charity case in the system. However, if one will not work... the church shouldn't have to support them. Let them glean or turn to the storehouse.

Remember Jesus teachings were a bit radical to us. If one takes your shirt give him your coat. Give to those who ask (except those refusing work) asking nothing again. Give to the ministry, give to the poor.

Amen.

Americas socialist system is collapsing because we are giving out money we dont have. It would seem the system can only go as far as there is money to pay for it.

Amen.

Going in debt to give to others? How foolish. We cant solve all the problems EVERYONE has. The poor generally have more faith and hope in Jesus than the rich, they NEED him more. They long for a paradise of happiness and joy as Jesus has promised.

I agree. However, here's an article that explains what I think about it...

JUSTICE
Holman Bible Dictionary

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat, particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17, REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19. Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and… loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18, NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12; Isaiah 30:18).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17; Psalms 146:7-9; Malachi 3:5). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2; Ecclesiastes 4:1). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28; Job 29:12-17). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9; compare Micah 2:2; Micah 4:4) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Deuteronomy 24:6). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18; Psalms 146:7), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13), and shelter (Psalms 68:6; Job 8:6). Job 22:5-9,Job 22:23; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process (Deuteronomy 16:18-20). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts (Leviticus 25:28). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalms 76:9; Isaiah 45:8; Isaiah 58:11; Isaiah 62:1-2). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalms 68:5-10; Psalms 10:15-16; compare 107; Psalms 113:7-9). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10; compare Luke 1:51-53; Luke 6:20-26).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalms 99:1-4; Genesis 18:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Jeremiah 9:24), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalms 76:9; Psalms 103:6; Jeremiah 49:11). Justice thus is universal (Psalms 9:7-9) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26; 2 Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8; Isaiah 1:11-17; Matthew 5:23-24), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10), tithing (Matthew 23:23), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13). See Law; Government; Poverty; Righteousness; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

Blessed be the poor for yours is the kingdom of God.

Amen!

[Aquila]

The soundness of the article I posted above is enough to make any sincere Christian consider being at least a little more Liberal.

Here's the deal... we must have faith... if God desires for a nation to care for "the least of these"... will He not bless said nation and sustain them with His right hand??? Did not judgment fall on Israel for not strengthening the hands of the poor and the needy??? Why not trust God to bless the nation that blesses it's poor, widows, orphans, and strangers???

We can do a study and see what God promises the nation that cares for it's poor... I think many might be surprised.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I never said that I wanted it... I found it intriguing that GOD chose that model. I see very little wrong with common sense welfare, unemployment, and social security programs. I am for universal health care... but I see issues with how to make it happen. I have friends and family in Canada that I talk to quite a bit. So I do have my leanings towards a single payer system. But all of this in my opinion is best on the state level... IF it is attempted.

As for sex... it's a free country. What people do with regards to their private behaviors and associations is entirely between themselves and God. I do believe that Christians should seek to follow God's Word and the guidence of their elders.

So its a free country, how is it free when forced to pay for others? Why can't giving to others be between them and God as well?

[Truthseeker]

So we gonna use scripture to say nation is to give to poor but then seperate nation from demands of scripture to legislate morality?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Imagine if we had a political party in power today that required land owners to allow the poor to glean their fields.

Imagine if we had a political party in power today that required land owners and business owners to set aside 10% of all income to specifically fund a national program that served the needs of the poor, widows, strangers, and needy (the Storehouse Fund).

That would be a biblical government... as God designed government in the Law of Moses...

...but Republicans would be crying "SOCIALISM!!!". LOL

We do have this. It's called TAXES, and its way more than 10%. But if you can set this up on only 10% of my income, I will vote for you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

So its a free country, how is it free when forced to pay for others? Why can't giving to others be between them and God as well?

Free means that all are brought into community, without leaving anyone behind. Allowing absolute destitution is not being a free country. For in that kind of society "freedom" only exists for those who can pay in cold hard cash.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by scotty

We do have this. It's called TAXES, and its way more than 10%. But if you can set this up on only 10% of my income, I will vote for you.

See... I'm not being as unreasonable as some people presume.